Transcript 0:00 This episode of the Iron Sights podcast, we cover contrast training for strength, power, and athletic performance. I've got a, one of our new coaches, or new to the show, not new to us, been with us a couple years. 0:10 His name's Ryan Jones. He joined us today for the conversation. 0:13 He, CC, and I get into the ins and outs of contrast training, what it is, how it works, why you might wanna do it, what are the pros, what are the cons, what are the risks, what are the benefits, and more specifically, what are the advantages of adding contrast training to increase power and strength. 0:29 You don't have to necessarily be an athlete to do this, but this is geared more towards that more advanced exerciser. Hope you guys take something away from this that you can add to your own training today. 0:39 In the episode, you'll hear us talk about one of our programs where we do add contrast training. That program is called RDF Max, or Red Dot Fitness Max. 0:47 You can find that by going to rdfmax.com, which is inside rdftrainonline.com. So again, when you go to rdfmax.com, you can see the, the RDF Max program, find out a little bit more about it. It's a four-month program. 1:01 It's periodized. 1:02 It starts with an introductory phase, goes all the way up to where you'll be doing some contrast training in the max phases of that program after building some capacity, some hypertrophy, and, um, some athletic prowess. 1:12 So if you wanna get better on the mat, on the court, on the field, just in the game of life, check out rdfmax.com. When you get there, you can use MAX20 for 20% off the program. Rdfmax.com, use code MAX20. 1:29 [rock music] Welcome to Iron Sights. 1:36 This podcast candidly seeks to create opportunities and deliver impact by sharing the experiences and wisdom of successful entrepreneurs and thought leaders who unapologetically aim to win in health, fitness, business, and life. 1:50 I'm your host, Scott Howell. Welcome to old school meets new school, tradition meets innovation, and imperfection meets excellence. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the show. 2:01 New voice on the podcast today for, for folks that, uh, that listen on a regular basis. Wanna welcome Ryan Jones to the show. Ryan, what is up? What's up, Scott? I, um, uh, it's, it's exciting to have you in here. 2:13 You've been a coach with us now for several years. Um, huge part of the team, huge part of what happens here on a daily basis. 2:20 And, uh, I'm excited to kinda get into today's conversation with you because of your experiences that you've had both personally through your own journey, but also with clients. 2:28 I think it adds, it can add a lot of perspective and objectivity to the topic of what we're gonna get into today. But, uh, anyway, man, you excited to be here? Are you nervous? What's up? 2:39 A little nervous, but you know, it's fun chatting with you guys, so I'm excited. Yeah, I think [laughs] it's usually all we're trying to do is just have a conversation. 2:46 So, uh, we'll just jump right in and start having that conversation. [laughs] And if, uh, you start to sound nervous, I'm gonna tell you. Okay. Yeah. And I'm gonna tell you to get your shit- You'll check me. 2:54 Let me know... get the shit, your shit together- Yeah, mic check... and let's get back on. [laughs] But I don't anticipate that at all. Um, 3:00 today the, the, the topic that I wanted to talk about, and we've discussed a little bit prior to the show, but I didn't wanna get too deep into it because we can easily get off on a, on a tangent where we should've had the, the mics on, I think, to kinda talk about things, to maybe discuss, uh, debate maybe a little bit, uh, share some experiences to help listeners, um, and viewers [swallows] 3:23 get a little bit better handle on contrast training. B- the topic of contrast training for, um, for strength, for, and for power, and more from an athletic development perspective. Mm-hmm. 3:35 Uh, particularly for those, those folks out there that are pursuing, you know, tho- that, that level of training or a higher level of training, but also maybe prep the, maybe the newer and more novice exerciser for, you know, uh, the next part of their journey or something to kinda shoot for and k- and start to tie it in. 3:51 Sometimes it's tough for us to kind of [clears throat]... at least I find it's tough for us to maybe entertain or infotain the higher achiever. Yeah. 4:00 Or, or that, that athlete that's been doing things for a long time or has done a lot of things, had a lot of success, 'cause I think what they're looking for are kind of the niche-y little things that we may be able to provide, and sometimes we have to, we stay a little broader. 4:14 Um, so I'm hoping this one maybe, maybe helps them a little bit more today, and it, it isn't too far over the head or feel too far out of reach for the f- the person that's like, "Look, man, I'm sort of new in my journey," or, "I'm not at this level yet." 4:26 And I wanna preface this by saying just because you may be more of a novice to intermediate exerciser, um, and some of this may or may not be appropriate for you at this particular point, 4:37 I think it'd be very helpful for you to understand where your training could get to and why the things from foundationally that you may be doing now, uh, lead up to this and prepare you for this kind of stuff. 4:47 You know, from, think of it more as, like, you're in a preparatory phase- Yeah... for, for this kind of thing. Mm-hmm. But anyway, contrast training. Let's, let's, let's talk about it. Just kind of at a high level, like, 4:56 what can we say about it to kind of sum it up? What's the easiest way to do it? Who wants to start? CC? 5:01 Uh, when I think of contrast training, I think of strength training combined with some type of power or explosive exercise right afterwards that resembles the movement pattern of the strength training exercise that was just completed. 5:19 So an example would be, like, a squat, a heavy loaded barbell back squat. Everybody can relate to that, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Followed immediately by, like, a broad jump. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 5:28 Or a box jump, some type of a plyometric movement. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So heavy strength, and we, we'll define what that means, followed by plyometric or power, uh, more specifically power activity where we're starting to... 5:42 And, and this would be less loaded, and you could even maybe consider it in some cases, like, unloaded if we're using body weight, but there are, there's still loads and forces being applied to the f- uh, placed on the body. 5:52 But immediately f- we'll, uh, immediately do this exercise right after that heavy loaded back squat. Yeah. So do my heavy loaded back squat. Within seconds, we'll say less than 30- Mm-hmm... 6:03 in most cases, and we'll ex- we'll get into that as well, we are right into a short series... of explosive power movements. Again, going back to, like, the box jump or broad jump. Mm-hmm. 6:15 Um, w- let's talk, uh, briefly around kinda what happens, what's happening maybe physiologically, and the benefits that you can get from this from a training, at least from a training effect, uh, when you start adding contrast training into your, into your, into your program. 6:32 Um, what are the base things we wanna tell people without getting too science-y and boring the hell out of them? What are the base things? Such as, uh, motor recruitment. 6:40 So depending on the load that you're using for your strength exercise, you're getting a, um, a m- near maximal 6:51 motor recruitment from your, the exercise that you're, you're going through, and then you're going into a more, uh, neurologically explosive type of movement pattern afterwards. 7:06 So you're gonna get a lot of, um, central nervous system, I don't wanna say excitement. What's another word, um, that I'm looking for? Recruitment. And it can be quite taxing, so your rest periods are going to be longer. 7:21 Mm-hmm. Yeah, before we start getting down into that, yeah, so what are we looking at here? We're basically looking at, like, if I get under, let's use that bar- barbell back squat to broad jump example. Yeah. 7:30 Uh, what are, what's happening here? 7:32 So when we get under that bar, and by the way, so we're gonna be looking at very h- heavy loads, somewhere, like, between one and five repetitions of, let's say, somewhere between 80 to 90% of your one rep max, as an example. 7:46 It doesn't have to be that, but it does need to be taxing. Yeah. Um, if we're looking at perceived rate of exertion or, you know, those kind of things, or r- rate of perceived exertion, sorry. 7:56 If, if you're kind of using that as a scale. We're talking at a level 10, you know, nine to 10 here. Mm-hmm. Right? In a very, very short period of time. What's happening there? Nervous system recruitment. 8:05 So you s- you mentioned, like, central nervous system, and you said you didn't wanna use the m- the, the word excitement. I don't like that word either, but I think it's easy for people to latch onto. It's like- Yeah... 8:12 what is happening? Well, everything's firing on. Switched on. Yeah. I mean, what does it feel like to be at, like, a level 10 on a barbell back squat? Yeah, everything's firing, everything's going. 8:21 You're excited from it. [laughs] Yeah. Right. Yeah. So. Yeah, I mean, you're, you're h- you're struggling, right? Yeah. You're having to focus at a very high level. Um, heart rate goes up. Mm-hmm. Blood pressure goes up. 8:31 You know- Respiratory rate goes up... respiratory rate go, r- rate goes up. Sweating, you know, happens. 8:35 Your body temperature goes up because of all the things that are firing on, all the bells and whistles are going on, right? So that happens. Now, that effect continues beyond after I've re-racked the bar. Mm-hmm. 8:49 So that nervous system is still fired up. It isn't like I unload the bar and everything just goes vroom. Yeah. You know, down- down regulates right back to normal. 8:56 We have what's called, and this is an important concept for people to understand without understanding, having to have a deep level of understanding of physiology, is what's called p- post activation potentiation. 9:07 This is a big mouthful. Post activation potentiation. PAP. PAP for short. So what, what, what that means is, is, like, while I've got this excited neuromuscular system- Mm... and central nervous system working for me, 9:22 when that happens, what I'm doing is I've recruited, in order for me to do that very heavy back squat, I've had to recruit more motor neurons and motor units. 9:32 Now, again, without getting too deep into this, all the bloo- all the, sorry, all the mus- the muscles in your body have motor, uh, units, or motor neurons and motor units. The neurons tell the units what to do. 9:43 So you have this kind of group. You got a neuron, and it sends out signals to units, which are attached to cells. 9:49 And so this, this, this messaging is going back and forth, and the higher level of excitement means the higher le- m- the, sorry, the higher level of recruitment is necessary. 9:59 So, um, if I get under 135, I don't have as, I might not have as many motor units therefore, or motor neurons r- uh, therefore as many motor units firing to move the 135 as it would take me to move the 315 on the bar. 10:16 Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, I think, like, the point is that your body's only gonna recruit what it needs to to, for the load. 10:22 So whatever load is challenging or output, it's not just, like, it's gonna recruit the number of motor units, but also the size. There's different size of motor units. 10:30 So it's gonna recruit those larger motor units because it needs that to be able to move the heavier load. Let's say it's 315, whatever it is for you. Right. 10:38 And then you continue that high output, that high recruitment number and size, and you apply that to the lighter load implement, and you have that high aggressive intent with the lighter implement. Gr- great explanation. 10:49 So basically, all this shit's switched on- Mm-hmm... from this previous heavy loaded movement, and now when I move into the explosive movement, which is lighter- Yeah... and had I done that without the PAP, 11:00 I might not be, and I probably wouldn't be recruiting as many at the si- and the, as many motor unit, n- neurons and units, and the size and, size and number of, and volume of those things as I am now after the heavy movement. 11:14 Yes. So I hope that makes sense, and I, I think you did a really great job. I may have just convoluted the shit out of that- [laughs]... so I apologize. Stealing my shit. [laughs] But, uh, I'm not a physiology teacher. 11:24 I, but the concept is what you explained there. That was a good job. So I think people are like, "Oh, okay, I get it." So now what I have is I have more things that are going to be responsive for me- Mm-hmm... 11:36 in this explosive power movement that I made of my, because, and under a lighter load. Yeah. 11:42 And again, we said this before, maybe even unloaded in the case of, like, a box jump or a sprint or something like that, or a broad jump. Um, two, then, so if I can do that, right, then my body learns, right? 11:54 We already know this is progressive overload. Like, I can get a higher output, which means I could get a better training effect- Yes... 12:02 which could mean, which means scientifically as we start to look at this and study this stuff, that you can get up to 20% or more, build 20% more strength in a very short period of time using these things. 12:15 Now, I throw that percentage out when, when you're looking at this. 12:17 This is very dependent on what you're doing, who the athlete is, and whatever else, but it's generally agreed upon That th- this type of training can, can, uh, very dramatically increase strength, power, speed, uh, and, uh, reaction time. 12:35 Uh, so for the athlete, all those things for me are music to my ears. Yeah. I don't care what I do, what ath- what, what ath- you know, athletic, you know, event or thing that I'm, I'm trying to pursue. 12:46 All that stuff sounds very cool, very interesting- Yeah... and quite frankly, very sexy. Yeah. Uh, I'm like, uh, who, uh, everybody should be contrast training, right? Yeah. 12:55 So that's, uh, I think that's basically the basic overview or premise that we can kind of move from. Anything else you wanna say around that? 13:01 Well, I just think that, like, I think the benefit from this, why this, this training can be a game changer for someone who hasn't implemented it, is a lot of the initial gains you see in strength or output are neurological. 13:12 So, you know, it's not necessarily you're gonna pack on muscle right out the gate. 13:16 But when we're having high outputs, whether it's, you know, explosiveness, power, um, even speed, moving quickly, getting a higher recruitment of your nervous system can increase that 20%. 13:26 Even else- you could have not even put on a pound of muscle, but just being able to tap into that system more effectively. Yeah. So that's where it can be a really game changer for someone who hasn't done this. Yeah. 13:34 And anybody that's at this level of training or at this point in their training where they c- they might think about implementing this in an appropriate manner- Yeah... 13:42 all they have to do is remember back to that very first couple of weeks they ever spent in the gym, and everybody's been there, right? Yeah. 13:47 It's the exact same concept in that, like, that 10, that set of 10-pound dumbbells that you started with maybe on your bench press or on your arm curls, whatever the hell it was that you started with on week one and two that felt like 100 pounds. 13:59 [laughs] Yeah. In two weeks' time, three weeks' time, they started to feel like 20-pounders. Yeah. And then qu- very quickly, they're like, "These 10-pounders are really, they're not challenging for me at all." 14:09 What happened there? Did you put on massive amounts of muscular or muscle and muscular strength? No. 14:16 What you did was you just trained your nervous system to be more efficient at recruiting the things you needed to do in order to move that load. It's the exact same, uh, it's, it's- It's cool... 14:25 it's, it's very, very, it's the same thing. Yeah. So I think you're, you're, you're making a good point there. 14:30 So to come over to the top, if you can remember that as the, as the novice person, like, remember how heavy those, I don't know, maybe 10-pounders isn't a, isn't an example, but the, the first time you, you know, you were, you were bench pressing and you used the bar and it felt like a million pounds. 14:43 Yeah. And it was all over the place. It was shaky. It was, you know, you were, you were jiggling and wriggling on the way down. Again, and then within a matter of weeks, you're loading plates on the bar- Mm-hmm... 14:52 in some cases. That's what we're talking about here. Yeah. Y- without adding a ton of muscular- Yeah... volume, right? So, um, really great point. Um, all right. 15:03 So then moving in, like, so that, that's a, we, we sort of mentioned the benefits there if we're, if we're moving through here. Like, if I'm an athlete, I'm trying to do things. 15:11 Here's some other benefits that I see to this. Like, for me, like, during, we're sort of in the winter months. We're definitely in the winter months. We're about to enter into December when we're recording this. 15:20 Uh, l- a lot of people's workouts end up having to move more inside because of weather 15:26 and temperatures, rain, snow, that kind of stuff, and they find themselves maybe spending, the serious athlete maybe spe- spending a little bit more time in the weight room if you're not a winter sport athlete. 15:35 This is the time where you're building that strength. You're, you're building that power in your, in your periodization of your training. And so that can get a little mundane. 15:44 Like, and, and I, I find that at the same time, like, this is a really good opportunity to maybe change things up to really push the strength and power output, uh, within your program. 15:55 Again, if, as long as it's not detrimental to your long-term plans and goals. Mm-hmm. Right? 16:01 So this is a g- this is a great way to kind of give your body a little bit of a different stimulus to change it up a little bit. 16:07 Uh, whether you're trying to build, y- you, whether speed is important to you or not, uh, the application of speed within this, this application of training, that being contrast training, will help you with your strength. 16:21 So I, I don't, let's not pigeonhole it into, oh, this is just for the sprinter or the jumper or the whatever. 16:27 Well, and I mean, there's even been some good studies, not, not necessarily contrast training specifically, but even for, like, the aging population, like, having a high post-activation or high recruitment- Mm-hmm... 16:38 being able to recruit your nervous system. I mean, there's even data of that re- reducing falls and things like that outside of just the athlete. So it's really good for anyone if you, if, if applied correctly. Yeah. 16:48 Th- and that's the key is the, is the application. 16:50 So yeah, I mean, you're, there, it really is, it could be applied a lot of different ways, and I think a lot of times we do sort of pigeonhole or silo it, and this is athletic training. 17:00 We're talking about increased, you know, power or, or strength and power for the athlete. 17:05 But, you know, depending on what your philosophy is, uh, you know, in terms of being a coach or a trainer or even an, an, an exerciser- Mm-hmm... uh, being, you know, one that loves to or one that doesn't. 17:15 Like, people can say, like, everybody's an athlete inside or was at one point or could be, you know, what is your potential? [laughs] Yeah. 17:22 I, I'm not a huge fan of that 'cause I've seen a lot of people that just, dude, you're not an athlete, right? [laughs] And no matter how hard we try, I, I'm not, we're not gonna be able to call you that in my mind. 17:31 [laughs] But at the same time, like, we're all humans. Yeah. We, we all, we all, we all are built very, very similarly. Mm-hmm. And so yeah, a lot of people could benefit by this. 17:41 Um, so again, increasing in strength, uh, facilitates muscle growth. Uh, there's, again, if you have a 25% to, say, 75% more potential of activation, think about what that's gonna do in your strength program. 17:56 I want that. Yeah. Like, people are look- often, like, you know, you can look at, look for these things in, like- Mm-hmm... 18:03 uh, some of, like, the EMG studies and things that they've done, uh, specific to, like, the ComPax, or, or sorry, Compex trainers, uh, where they're, where they're using electrical stimulus. Oh, yeah. 18:14 Uh, things like that. There's all kinds of, um- Uh, you know, people, people are always reaching for this different science or gadgets to maybe even, you know, uh- Get the edge... get the edge in this way. 18:26 This is very simple, uh, premise and programming, uh, variables that you can, you can add to get major, major increases along the way. Uh, like the technology component. The, without the tech, yeah. Yeah. 18:36 Without the tech. Or electronics. Anybody can do this. It's not exclusive, right? And at the same time, it's very, uh, accessible. 18:43 The other, the other part, the other thing I really love about it is, is, is it's n- it's, it's very time efficient, right? I mean, you don't... 18:51 And a- a- alongside that, like no matter where you are in your program, this isn't or doesn't have to take away from your typical strength training, body build, even bodybuilding type routine. 19:03 Again, if you're a competitive bodybuilder, right? Yeah. Uh, I'm not saying you can't gain benefit by this, but I'm, I'm not, I'm... I'll also say this may not be the best use of your time. Yeah. Right? 19:12 But at the same time, if you're like, "I bodybuild as, you know, recreation," or it's, that's, you know, the bigger part of my sh- my, uh, my lifting program within my fitness program, you can gain a lot of benefit here. 19:23 And it's not gonna be... It doesn't mean tons more time on the end of your, on the end of your workout. 19:29 In terms of total work volume, you're do- you could be doing more or less the same when we're starting to look at, like reps and sets. Yeah. 19:35 We're just higher intensity across the two exercises, but same amount of volume. So it's really more of an incr- uh, it... 19:43 there's skill that's involved here in some cases, but we're, we're really upping the intensity, intensity level. So I, I like the fact that it's, it's, it's, um, it's, it's time efficient. 19:55 What else do we wanna say before we get into, like how we can kind of apply this? I mean, I just think it's, I think it's a great way, and even kind of you're talking about the time efficiency. Mm-hmm. 20:04 It's a great way f- I, I don't know, for myself, like I fell in love with the gym and working out initially as more of an athlete, and then I got really into the bodybuilding scene and the machines and the isolation and that kind of style, and I kinda got rid of a lot of the athletic movement. 20:17 So it's, this style of training, it's a great way to add in just a little bit- Variety... a little variety, make you feel like explosive athletic again. 20:26 And you know, we haven't talked all the, you know, initially sets, reps, and everything, but it's, it could be even just, you know, a set of three after your squat. 20:34 You know, it takes another 10 seconds if anything, um, but it can give you the, that, that, uh, benefit from it. That boost. Yeah. Yeah, it's kinda like a, um, a cheat code, uh, to, to some extent. Yeah. 20:44 Um, yeah, I mean, my experience with this is, is the same as yours is, is as an athlete. 20:49 But I, I gotta, have to tell you, it wasn't very good, and the reason why it wasn't very good is 'cause, because I'm not sure my coaches at the time when I was going through it truly understood the concepts and the application piece. 21:00 It was more... And, and I certainly w- it wasn't explained to me why we were doing what we were doing. Mm-hmm. And I think intention has everything to do with what you're going to get out of this. 21:09 So for me, it was almost like punishment, because if you're really working hard, it's, it's a challenge, right? Mm-hmm. So it kind of felt like, like why are we being beat on today? 21:18 And I didn't even realize at the time what we were doing or why we were doing it. And, and again, I'm not quite sure the coaches that I had at the time really did either. Yeah. 21:25 They were just following some plan or, or whatever. Um, but yeah, that's how I was introduced to it too. 21:31 And then as I, I got on and I recognized what was working better for me and how I needed to change my program for me to both stay interested, keep the, the progressions going, get recovered, 21:42 um, and keep my head around, you know, just continuing to do new challenging, hard things for me, I found out, I found where I could put it in. And so where it's recently showed up for me is on the turf- Mm... 21:55 here at the gym. Like, and, and I've been working some sprint and run work, lateral work as well from a, an explosive perspective. So it's been fun. Like, I've been like, "This is really fun. I feel like an athlete." 22:06 Yeah, exactly. You know, when I'm doing that. Maybe I'm not, but [laughs] but, but, and where does that apply for me, like in life? Well, look, I'm not gonna go out there on the field and compete anymore. 22:14 I don't do that. But I do play in the game of life and, and I do like to feel like I can do things. 22:20 Uh, and i- and if I wanted to do something, I don't wanna feel like I was restricted, you know, whether that's go out and play maybe a little game of pickup basketball on Thanksgiving or, you know, k- run some, run some, uh, run some routes out in the park with my martha- brother throwing the football at me. 22:34 Like, I understand my limitations. [laughs] Mm. 22:37 But there, these are things that can kind of open up those things to allow people to do things that they wouldn't typically do, and feel a little bit more like an athlete in terms of how they're, they're applying their training. 22:47 Um, so let's talk about like some of the, like more of the detail, like how would you apply it? Like, so we t- sort of, uh, tiptoed around, like how heavy do you need to go in your movement? 22:58 Um, and then what, what maybe a rest time might look like, and then what the next movement might, might look like in terms of the plyo or the power movement that you're doing. 23:05 So let's, let's break this down a little bit. 23:07 So I think from an overview perspective, if we're trying to choose two movements, and we know we need a big heavy strength force production movement to start with, I'm gonna recommend that people start with something that they know, and stick to the tried and true, uh, movements that are out there for building maximal force production or, and strength. 23:28 Things that we, things that we know. You... Now, it's not to say that you can't apply something, other things, which we can, we can talk about. 23:34 But I think especially when you're starting this, and if you're really trying to understand and get the most benefit out of this PAP and the h- the things that it can bring along with it, we stick to some very basic stuff like 23:47 a ba- barbell squat like we mentioned. Um, the other ones would be, like a deadlift. Yeah. Right? Or a Romanian deadlift, something, something like that where we can really load up to get into... 23:59 We're, we're, we're attacking the entire body of sorts, but we're also being maybe more specific to a specific movement pattern and a group of muscles. 24:06 Um, I, I, you know, I guess if we had to really quickly go down, there'd be a squat, some type of a squat, some type of a hinge, like a heavier Romanian or, or, or full deadlift. Mm-hmm. A big push. Mm-hmm. 24:17 A big horizontal pull, maybe a big vertical pull, and maybe an overhead press. 24:22 That is not to say that you couldn't add some rotation, sometime, and, and you couldn't apply this in other places, uh, some type of a unilateral movement- Yeah... 24:30 some type of a very, um, excuse me, uh, specific joint movement, like elbow or knee flexion and extension. There's, there's a lot of things you could do here. Yeah. 24:40 Um, but in terms of what we're trying to apply sort of at the base level for, again, for that, for that athlete, this is, those are probably the ones I would stick to. You guys, is there anything I left out there? 24:51 No, I don't think so. I mean, you can, the la- there's the lateral movement- Mm-hmm... you know, as well. You said unilateral- Yep... um, movement patterns, but I'm thinking, like, lateral lower body- Yeah... 25:01 type of exercise. Yeah. But something that, like, all of these pr- require skill. But obviously, with the higher intensity level that we're applying, we wanna make sure we're balancing intensity against skill, right? 25:14 Yeah. So, uh, and again, r- uh, when we're doing these, we're gonna be doing more than one set, generally speaking, if we're s- trying to be organized to it. 25:23 So we wanna make sure we're not doing anything where as we become more fatigued, the level of skill we've chosen takes away from the potential that we could get from the loading that we're doing or the force production that we're trying to get from the particular exercise. 25:37 An example would be, obviously, if I'm trying to do some single leg, you know, uh, I don't know, pistol, loaded pistol squat to max, you know, to max effort, you know, in set one, w- and that being followed by, like, a single leg, uh, hop, you know, broad jump or something like that, um, that's very advanced. 25:56 Yeah. And set number one, and whatever you choose, may look and feel, it shouldn't, but it may look and feel a little different on set three. And so we just wanna make sure we're managing that. 26:06 So I would stick to the base, um, my basic recommendation, I, I would stick to the basics. 26:10 Well, and I think kind of important with that, that I think the main training effect you need from the, the primary movement needs to be intensity, needs to be, and intensity defined as, like, load or output, right? 26:21 So if it's a single leg pistol squat, you know, and it's a lot, it's, it's unstable and you can't really have- Mm-hmm... 26:27 a good, and there's skill, you're not gonna have a high intensity, so you may not get to that high motor recruitment that we talked about earlier. Yeah. So it needs to be something that you can overload- Absolutely... 26:35 aggressively and effectively, so. Yeah, I picked that one as a, as, as an example 'cause I think everybody can kinda get the, what you just said there- Yeah... 26:42 and, and ex- and, and how you explained it that, like, okay, even if you loaded it, you're, you're still not potentially overloading the entire system. Mm-hmm. Right? And that's what we're trying to do. 26:51 We're really trying to tax the system here- Yeah... um, as a whole. 26:55 So, um, when we do that, we're choosing an exercise that we, um, that we can do exactly what you just said, but something where we're gonna be probably applying somewhere between the may- maybe one to five repetitions. 27:07 Mm-hmm. Uh, you choose. Intensity is important. Um, if you're choosing something that's, like, right around your one to three or even five rep max, you're fine, right? Yeah. So maybe more than one rep, right? Yes. 27:22 Two to five, you know, some- somewhere in there. Generally speaking, that's a high level of intensity. Uh, and so that's, that's kinda where you wanna keep your, you know- Your load... 27:31 yeah, keep your loads, uh, based on the, based on the movement that you choose. The next part is, is like, obviously we need to know what the next exercise is. 27:41 And Cece, to your point, what you, what you refer to as something that's similar to, maybe even mimics the big strength movement that you just did. 27:50 So, like, we used, when we started, we talked about, like, the squat to broad jump or squat to, to box jump- Mm-hmm... something like that. Um, it could be though something else. You could add a sprint. 28:00 You could add something like that to after the squ- after the squat. Depends on what your goals are. Yeah. 28:05 I think you can apply it where you're getting very specific and like, "Hey, this is the, this is the exact, you know, movement pattern," the same muscles, the, like, same, like, recruitment of things are firing, or just the same general output from, like, the lower extremity exa- like, the example, like a squat into a sprint. 28:20 Mm. Like, maybe there's some different things going on, but it's still just that high output. Um- Yeah, what's important is whatever, again, movement you choose, you have the skill to perform it. Yes. 28:30 And you can do it at the highest possible output level. Yeah. Right? Based on obviously, and, uh, and do it based on being pre-fatigued from that big strength movement. So that's how you're kinda choosing movements. 28:41 Now, we can go through a list of, like, kinda what our favorite combos are. Yeah. We'll do that in a second. 28:46 But what's really important is what we left out in the middle there, which is the rest time in between movement one to movement two. We talked about intensity. 28:54 Um, and what we didn't talk about was, like, how much of the, um, how many reps or how long do we spend in this mo- Second movement pattern... in the second movement. 29:05 Uh, uh, uh, the recommendation I would give is somewhere around the same. So if you're doing, like, the broad jump to, it's somewhere between maybe t- three to five repetitions. Yeah. 29:14 And it, and, and the, but the important part here is, is, like, how long do we wait before we do that? And I think this is, there's some nuance here, so we should, we should get into it. What say you? 29:24 [laughs] You know, yeah. [laughs] We were talking about this earlier. I, I think there's, again, there's nuance. There's a lot of it depends. 29:30 It's the, you know, you're managing fatigue, like somebody's cardio respiratory fitness, their abili- how skillful is the next movement. Mm. You know, um, it's a very simple movement. 29:39 You can maybe have a little bit of a shorter rest time. 29:41 Maybe it could be a one to five, a three to five kinda second rest from the main movement to the next, where it could be upwards to maybe at the most then, like, 30 seconds, but that's... 29:51 And I would mainly use a little bit longer rest time if there's more skill in that secondary movement. Mm-hmm. And there's more, like, they gotta be aware, they gotta be thinking. 29:58 They're not just, um, putting force output, but they're actually having to, I don't know, you're gonna have them do a jerk or something for the secondary move. Like, there's some movement going on there. 30:06 Maybe that's closer to the 30-second rest. So there's kinda some things to... Yeah, no, I, I think you landed as far as, you know, the cardio respiratory, then the muscular, uh, fatigue as well. Mm-hmm. 30:17 So having to manage all of that, and then depending on what that second exercise is and the skill level that's involved, um, there's not, there's probably more skill level in an overhead split jerk than there is with a body weight, you know, jump squat. 30:30 Yeah. Right? So- Yeah, it depends, I think. Yeah. Yeah, so there are, and, and that's an answer that comes up a lot, you know, on the show and just in, in what we do, and it should. Yeah. 30:39 I mean, that, that's an appropriate response. But a- again, it's, it's also very general, and that can frustrate people. They wanna know, like, "Exactly what should I do?" 30:47 Well, we can't tell you exactly what to do, but we can get pretty close in terms of some general recommendations. So I think that's, those are really good points, you know, that you're making there. 30:55 So, um, i- in, in terms of kind of rolling down this list of, okay, so I said squat, hinge, push, pull in two ways- Yeah... an overhead press. 31:07 What are some of the things that people could co- w- could combo, uh, to maybe start to implement this into their training, into their training, experiment a little bit, or maybe even put a longer term program together? 31:17 Um, so let's, we, we started with the squat and we kinda talked about a couple. You know, there's a box jump, there's a broad jump. A- anything else you guys like? Um, the bo- uh, the jump squats. I like jump squats. 31:31 Uh-huh. I like box jumps. I like, um, box jumps from the plyo perspective. Yeah. So you're jumping down off the box to then jump up- Mm... off the ground. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, for a squat. 31:44 For a hinge, you know, you'd mentioned RDLs. I really like RDLs followed by a broad jump, you know, having to load the hips and then moving yourself, um, forward. Mm-hmm. I was gonna say vertically. 31:56 [laughs] Yeah, one- Horizontally. [laughs] Horizontally. [laughs] I, I think kinda tied into even, like, a broad jump, I mean, you can either think, uh, especially with lower body, this is ea- easy to think plyos. 32:05 You can think of moving your body or an implement in the same movement pattern. Mm-hmm. So I love, like, a, if someone is just implementing this, like a log toss. Mm-hmm. 32:12 Um, or, like, an over-the-shoulder toss, something like that, where they're getting good hip flexion extension into that. Mm-hmm. Um, or a kettlebell swing. 32:19 Uh, like, if someone, if I'm building on their kettlebell swing, maybe even, like, a dead stop. Mm-hmm. 32:23 Um, something where there's high output, but- Yeah, you kinda stole my thunder there with the dead stop piece because what's really important, I think, for power out- output- Yeah... 32:32 and, and maximizing this elastic potential that we have as humans- Mm... is to do things from a standstill or from a- Yeah... stopped position. Mm-hmm. 32:40 And we're trying to generate as much power from that s- and kinetic energy from that very, very s- that still position. That's, those are gonna be your most powerful athletes, the ones that can do that- Yeah... the best. 32:51 Mm-hmm. Um, and that starts with learning how to decelerate- Mm-hmm... which you just mentioned. Like, you're on a box, you jump down off the box, into the- Absorb, yeah... 33:00 absorb it, and then are able to, uh, generate force from that absorption, like loading the spring, and then explosively moving out of that. 33:08 Well, and even sometimes for people, it could even be if they're really new, they don't know how to absorb force, it could just even be a depth drop- You got it... where they don't even produce force. Yeah. 33:14 They just absorb that force into the floor- Mm-hmm... and that's enough of a, you know, a quick loading. And that, that, here, herein comes the depends. Yeah. Right? 33:22 Depending on where this person is in their, in their, in their journey, but also what their goal is, what they may be wrestling with from a, uh, limitations perspective or something like that. So 100% agree. 33:33 Uh, it could be, it, uh, any of these could be modified based on, based on the, uh, again, the who, the what, the why. Uh, those are all very, very important things. All right, let's move forward. 33:44 Let's get into that, that hinge movement. So, you know, I mentioned earlier, like, a big, heavy deadlift or Romanian deadlift. Those are things people can wrap their, their head around a little bit. 33:54 And it doesn't nec- it doesn't have to be with a barbell. It could be with dumbbells, could be anything. 33:58 Anything [laughs] that's gonna get you to that, you know, two to five rep maximum at a output level of near 90%, uh, is important. But any, any other ones that come up for you there? For what? The- For the hinge. 34:11 For the hinge. For, for a heavy hinge. Hmm. You know, I've even played, I mean, this is more advanced, but, I mean, you could even get into, I, I don't know, you could get into, like, even cleans work. 34:21 Like, I've done some contrast work. Mm-hmm. 34:23 You know, and it's intentional, but where I'll do some sort of, yeah, a hinge, a heavy hinge, and then do either a barbell clean or a kettlebell clean or some sort of movement like that- Mm-hmm... um, as well. Yep. 34:32 It's a little more s- But again, that's, can kinda go more back to there's some skill- The skill. Mm-hmm... there's some thought, so that might be that longer rest. 34:38 Yeah, it, the, again, it depends on the athlete that you're working with, and again, what the, what the, the outcome we're looking for is, but I, I like that one. Yeah. 34:44 Moving over to, like, second exercise, secondary exercise, more power, you know, output exercise. Um, with the, with the hinge, you mentioned, like, the kettlebell swing. Mm-hmm. 34:56 Um, I like that one if you're trying to build somebody's kettlebell swing. Yeah. Right? I mean, it could be that. 35:00 It, it, it could be something as ver- as, as simple as that to really try to drive strength and power through that, that hinge motion. That, that's, that's one. Mm-hmm. What do, what, what do you like? 35:10 I like the broad jump. I like the, um, concentric phase of the kettlebell swing, but using a medicine ball- Mm-hmm... to a wall. So yeah, a log, log toss type of thing. Like a log toss, yeah. Yeah, like a log to, yeah. 35:21 Yeah. This is where, this is, so this is interesting. I'm really glad we're going here 'cause you mentioned the ball, and what we haven't mentioned here is bands yet. 35:26 The power profile through those bands can be very helpful- Yeah... you know, in terms of loading. Oh, like the variable resistance. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Through, through those things. 35:33 So you got balls, bands, bells. Those types of things can really help in kind of those hinge movements. I... They come in in other places, too, but, like, that log toss is an awesome one. 35:43 Um, you know, if you're coming out of the hinge, uh, movement, where you're, again, that ball's be- For those people that don't know what that is, when we say log toss, what, what, you, that ball's down between your legs. 35:52 You're starting from a dead standstill, and you're, you're basically, think of, like, a kettlebell swing, only you're gonna let the kettlebell go. In this case, it would be the ball. Mm-hmm. 36:01 And, you know, more of, like, a Dynamax type ball or a sand-filled, like, slam ball- Yeah... or something like that to the wall, and then repeat that movement two to five times. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 36:09 Yeah, I like that one, too. 36:10 'Cause I, I think it kinda goes into, I think when there's, like, the, the implement's moving and they have to, even with a dead stop swing, there's still a component of absorbing force, producing force, absorb, you know, even- Yeah... 36:20 in that, where the log toss, all you have to f- um, to focus on, and it's kinda that same, that dead stop principle we were talking about earlier of you're just accelerating. That's it. 36:28 You're just working on the concentric. Yep. And that's it. Yep. So. Yeah, so you, you're taking out the deceleration piece outside- Mm-hmm... of you're having to slow your body that's going into extension. Yeah. 36:36 But again, we start with a big, heavy extension movement, and we just need to stay somewhere in that. 36:41 We're trying to stay somewhere in that realm, going back to, like, the broad jump Still a lot of knee exten- knee and, and hip extension and back extension- Yeah... in that movement. 36:48 When we're even going into shoulder flexion and, uh, there's a lot happening there. Yeah. Yeah. Right? In that type of movement. So I, I like that. If we moved over into the next one. 36:57 And, and I think that's, this is the, those are the two, like, I think exercise or movement patterns that you see probably most happening. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're pretty sexy, right? 37:05 And, and, and somebody's probably done those type of movement patterns before and it kinda makes sense to them. 37:10 We start going and getting into the upper body, upper extremity, I think things, you know, people are like, they, they, they struggle maybe to, to kinda know what to do. 37:17 These are my favorite because, um, because you get to use your legs as a base, right? Versus they're not quite as taxing. Mm. 37:26 Um, so you can, uh, you, because you just don't have as much muscle, you know, working for you. Like, you don't have your lower extremity working for you to generally in the, in the same way. Yeah. So here's an example. 37:36 So, like, you're looking at me like I'm fucking nuts. Yeah. No, I'm just trying to keep up with the conversation because I- If I- Some of those things you were saying. 37:42 What's- So are you talking now we're moving to the upper extremity? Yeah. Okay. Got it. Yeah. So where, yeah, so what's, what's harder to do, a barbell back squat or a bench press? Barbell bench press. 37:49 Like, from a neurological- Yeah... like taxing. Mm. Squat. Yeah, absolutely. Squat's way harder, yeah. So as we start to move up, things change a little bit. Mm-hmm. 37:55 And, uh, it, the, the movements can, I think, the movement... Well, we'll get, we'll get into those. So the, the, the push. So we, let's, let's say I'm using a bench press. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? 38:03 As my big heavy, you know, horizontal push movement. Uh, could be other things, but I, I like that one. Most people, most people can relate to that. Get it. Yeah. And we can overload the fuck out of that, right? 38:12 Yeah, yeah. 38:13 [laughs] The one that I like the most moving out of there for, and, and this depends, but I think people get a kick out of this one, and it also opens up and shows a lot of different things, is that med ball chest pass. 38:25 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, against the wall or just out, like, even if we're- Into the floor... yeah, onto the floor, chasing it, doing it again. 38:31 So you pick that thing up and you're just going out to that big, that heavy chest ball med pass. Doesn't even have to be that heavy. Yeah. Just something that pro- provides a little bit of resistance. Mm-hmm. 38:40 Um, and again, um, my, my body is able to really get behind that and just produce as much force as possible. I- Yeah... I, I don't know. I like that one. Yeah. Uh, well... Go ahead. 38:51 I was gonna say, my favorite is going from a bench press into a plyo pushup. Yeah. And whether it's a plyo pushup where your hands are just coming up off the floor and then you're having to reabsorb the force- Mm... 39:02 or as you advance, a plyo pushup where you actually have to clap. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 39:06 You know, because that's more advanced and it takes a lot more power output to get, be able to get the clap before your land, hands land on the ground. 39:12 Well, and you, that is something that there is some regression progression as well of- Mm-hmm... like you can go to an incline and do the, the plyo pushup. Yep Yep. Um, as well. But- Yeah. 39:20 So I think it's a great one for somebody that's just being introduced to this. Again, here's another place to implement bands where you go into like a banded press or something like that. Mm-hmm. 39:27 Like, where you can really, really increase speed- Mm... and power output- Yeah... without having to overload or tax the body in a way that's unnecessary in order to, again, leverage the PAP. Yeah. Right? 39:40 So good, good ones there. If it, so if you don't have, if you don't have balls or bands, like in this one, then it, plyo push-ups are great. Yeah. 39:48 And, and to your point, like that elevated one, like maybe we're doing it like in a squat rack- Yeah... uh, off the J cups in a bar- Yeah... or on a bench- Yeah... or on a countertop or whatever. 39:57 Well, and even, like the, the intent, when we say plyo too, really what that means is, like, the intent of moving as quickly as possible. 40:02 So let's say you're holding the bar on an incline bench press, it can just be really having the intent of getting up as quick as you can- Right... with a lighter load. Mm-hmm. 40:09 It doesn't necessarily always have to be, you know, leaving the ground- Right... leaving the floor, leaving the bar. Yeah, you're 100% right. It's the intent that's the important part of it. 40:16 Ah, super, super important point. All right, so let's move into horizontal pull. Uh, I mean, hor- horizontal pull's a big heavy row. 40:24 Uh, you know, and if we're really trying to tax, like, the major movers for a rowing position, um, I'm not going to choose, like, a bent over barbell row, uh, which is also obviously getting into my lower extremity, low back, hip complex- Mm... 40:39 things like that. I might. There may be a cause. I'm not saying never. Yeah. I'm just saying I'm probably not going there. 40:44 I'm going to, like, a big heavy, you know, plate-loaded machine, uh, row, or maybe, you know, if, if I, you know, we can stack up enough on the cable row or something like that where I'm really focused on depression retraction- Yeah... 40:57 uh, and a good solid movement pattern for my horizontal pulling. Um, that's, that's what I pick. Any- Mm-hmm... anything that comes to mind for you guys? As far as, like, the heavy loaded movement? Yeah. 41:06 The heavy, heavy loaded horizontal load. I mean, I, I, I think, like, you can get into some heavy dumbbell. I mean, there's mer- we haven't talked about this, of like unilateral- Yep... versus bilateral. Mm. 41:13 But, so there could be a point there. But even I love putting someone on an incline bench and getting 'em some heavy dumbbells. I feel like it's, and they're laying on their stomach- Uh-huh... on the bench. 41:21 I feel like it's a great way to isolate. They're still free moving with the dumbbells, but they can, you can load it up- Yeah... and they kinda get some feedback for the position of their spine a little bit more too. 41:30 Yep. So I love, like, an incline heavy row. Yeah, I love that too. I, 'cause you take out the whole, like, I have to stabilize- Mm... a ton here through my trunk and into my lower extremity. Yeah. That's a great one. 41:40 And very low risk. Yeah. And that one particularly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Especially, so if you're trying to apply this to somebody that may have some type of a preexisting issue. Yeah. 41:48 Um, again- Like a, a cranky low back or anything like that. Some- It's taking the load from, they're not holding a hinge position while they're doing the row. Right. In a bent over row. 41:54 Uh, and when they're done, they can just drop the weight- Exactly... walk away. Yeah. It's, or, and get up and, and move into the next movement pattern. I really, I really like that one too. 42:01 All right, moving into, into movement pattern number two, what do you like for, uh, horizontal pulling as it relates to your plyometric, um, speed, speed component? 42:11 Um, this isn't, oh, I mean, it's not necessarily it's, um, as purely just horizontal, but especially if we're rowing in a way that's more lat focused- Mm-hmm... I like, like, a heavy ball slam. Mm-hmm. 42:20 Um, 'cause you're still getting a lot of, you know, shoulder flexion extension- Mm... in the slam. Mm. 42:24 Um, so that's something that I would probably go to the most, whether it's with a med ball or a dead ball, like a sandball or something like that. I like the banded, uh, speed pulls. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 42:34 Yeah, I like those Yeah Strength band I, yeah, I love the speed pulls with when we start getting into the, the, the, the rowing stuff. Yeah. Or with the bands. Sorry. 42:43 Uh, I think it's, it's just a, it's an easy thing to do. You don't need a ton of setup. Um, it's very controlled. 42:50 Depending on where you maybe are for the day, you don't really have to choose a weight, so- so to speak- Yeah... or even a distance to move. You kind of know where you are with the bands. It's very easily adjusted. Yeah. 43:01 Um, you know, I just put a little bit more tension in this orange band today or green band today, or a little less, depending on, on kind of where I am. Yeah. 43:08 And as a coach, I like that because it helps me make easy adjustments as I'm watching my athlete or my client do it, going, "Okay, that looks like it's a little bit, um..." 43:16 They're, they're having, they're struggling with this. Yeah. Like, with the skill piece of this. So how can I, how can I help? 43:21 Is this just they need a cue, or maybe we've, we, we just need to, we just need to, to, to take the, the stretch out of that band? Yeah. Right? And that resistance profile. 43:30 It, we can change that very, very quickly, so I like that as well. Yeah. And so that leads into the hor- uh, sorry, the vertical pull. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I think there's some real basic ones there. 43:39 You've got pull-down machines. You've got the, uh... You know, you've got obviously, like, a weighted pull-up or a pull-up, depending on the person. 43:45 But I would say if you're applying this exercise to a pull-up, you're likely doing a weighted or resisted, let's just say, pull-up. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause if you can only do five pull-ups, if that's your max, 44:00 you probably shouldn't be doing contrast training with a vertical pull. Yeah, yeah. Not yet. That's kind of for that conversation later, of who is this appropriate for. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 44:07 So, like, if you can't even, yeah, if you can't get to five body weight pull-ups, probably not appropriate for you. Yeah. So, so I'm, so I'm putting that out there. Yeah. Like, I think that's an important one. 44:13 And you mentioned one of my favorite ones for this, uh, with regard to the contracts, contrast piece, and that is, uh, like, a med ball slam, an overhead med ball slam. Yes. Reverse med ball slam. Yeah. 44:24 So, um, I really like, I really like that movement where you're, you're taking that thing all the way overhead, slamming it behind you. It- Yeah... it, there's a... I, again, there's a certain level of skill there. 44:34 Mm-hmm. But it can happen very, very, very quickly. Yeah. Uh, anything else you like? I mean, we mentioned bands. Mm-hmm. Are you going... So you could go back to the bands or whatever. You can go back to bands. 44:43 Um, if you're ready to, um... If, if, if you're, if you're able to do pull-ups, I really like jumping pull-ups. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's one of my favorite- Yeah... types of exercises, assuming that it's executed properly. 44:58 Well, and this kind of, this goes back to depending where you're at as well. 45:01 I've actually played with, and I see you do this all the time, actually, is doing weighted pull-ups heavy, dropping the weight belt, and doing body weight pull-ups. Nailed it. Or band, or banded pull-ups. 45:10 Or banded, or banded pull-ups. Or banded pull-ups, yeah. Band assisted pull-ups. Mm-hmm. Just some sort of, where it really gets you on the other, opps end of the, um, spectrum. 45:15 And again, that intent of I'm moving my body up quickly as much as I can, but... Yes. So banded pull-ups, where... 45:22 And the one I, ones I like to do here are actually, 'cause I think this is a very quick transition, and it's the easiest to do when you start looking at the skill perspective, and that is to have the band stretched across the J-Cups at the bottom- Yeah... 45:36 and it's at your feet. Mm-hmm. Little easier to get into. Yeah, rather than- Yeah... having that band wrapped around the bar- Yeah... and then trying to put a knee or a foot through that. Yeah. 45:42 And because that changes the pendulum action- Mm-hmm... that's going, versus the straight up and down. And I have seen this applied incorrect- I would just say 45:51 in a, in a not awesome way several times, and that is, like, people are getting out of control on that, that banded- And it's sloppy... that, and it gets really sloppy. Oh, so they're just swinging up. Yeah. 46:01 So remember, the important thing here is this is a skill, and we need to be, and want to be working through that skill when we're doing it. 46:08 So when you move to, like, this, when we're, and, and anytime we're adding speed, like in a plyometric or, or things like that, things can't fall apart. So- Yeah... uh, yeah. 46:15 This one takes some practice, more practice than maybe even some of the other ones in my, my opinion, to really nail this one, to get this one right. Mm-hmm. Like, what is the right band strength for me? 46:26 Where does it need to be adjusted? And how do I control my body through space while I'm doing it? But to your point, like, if you just had a pull-up bar- Yeah... 46:34 or you didn't have anything else, you know, to really use or whatever, or, you know, like a squat rack with a pull bar where you can stretch that band, or even, again, if you had to go arou- loop it around the bar and then around your feet or foot. 46:44 Yeah, yeah. Um, it's a, it's, it's very simple, very accessible to, to, to most people. So I like that one as well. Um, all right. 46:52 The ones we, the, I think the one we haven't mentioned yet is the, without getting, again, deep into the weeds with, like, rotational stuff and, and maybe specific joint, like, elbow and knee flexion, extension type movements, which I don't wanna dig into today. 47:05 Yeah. Again, I don't think that's super appropriate, um, for this c- this conversation. Uh, but is the overhead press. So I mean, overhead press is a real simple one. Yeah. Could be an overhead barbell press. Mm-hmm. 47:18 Could be a dumbbell press. Dumbbell. I mean, those are y- something you can really load up safely. Yeah. I've been loving, um, a lot, like, a Viking press. I've been loving that a lot lately. 47:28 Oh, that's an awesome suggestion. Yeah. [laughs] So. Yes. Explain what the Viking press is for those people that don't, that don't understand. 47:33 Um, I may butcher what this is called, but it's basically you get a landmine, and you can set it up a couple different ways. There's a way to do it in the rack where it's more of you're loaded horizontally. 47:42 But I like doing it even from a landmine still, where you put this horizontal bar. I'm guessing it resembles a Viking ship or something. [laughs] Right. 47:49 [laughs] Um, and you put the horizontal bar, and it has some neutral grip or, or pronated- It attaches to the end of the barb- Attaches to the end of the barbell... to the sleeve of the barbell. Yeah And you can do... 47:56 And then this is another conversation, but you can change it whether you're standing or kneeling as far as how much load or how much actually overhead you are. Mm-hmm. Um, but I love it. 48:05 It's a great way to get people start, to start moving overhead, and the implement kind of forces them into a better position, in their overhead position, 'cause a lot of people can't actually get overhead well [laughs] at all. 48:14 Yeah. But- Yeah, you're right. It, it, so th- this is a great case for using that, um, for the person that may struggle with control- Mm-hmm... 48:23 um, in this movement pattern, and more specifically, that has, uh, o- overhead, uh, mobility, uh, or flexibility issues. Yes. More specifically, we'll call it mobility, and so many people do. Yeah. 48:35 And, and I hear, I hear- All the time I hear coaches go down this long list of all the reasons why you should not take somebody overhead, or if they can't do this, then you can't do that, and all this stuff. 48:45 It, it, it drives me nuts. But the viking press is a great way, because you can adjust that for just about most of anybody's needs specific to what their range of motion looks or doesn't look like. Exactly. 48:59 What their mobility is. And, you know, I... 49:01 As, as we get older, uh, and I, I've worked with and talked to a lot of guys that are ex-athletes, maybe, um, from the military as well, or from law enforcement, where they're in kit a good part of their life or their day, uh, they've been loaded down and, you know, everything is happening in this f- in this front workspace- Yeah... 49:20 all the time, plus they've been injured, plus the, you know, they go hard in the gym, you know, all of these things. Plus we're just aging and things, you know, we tend to lose that as we go. Yeah. 49:28 All that stuff, where they just lack overhead mobility. And going there or trying to force that is not necessarily a good idea. 49:38 So without getting off on a tan- tangent, really glad you brought up the viking press, 'cause that's a way to not have to go directly vertical- Yeah... 49:45 and still get the benefits of a, of a, we'll just say, I don't like the, the adjective, but the very heavy overhead press. Yeah. 49:52 That may not be directly overhead, but is still, is, is giving, is giving you the ability to perform that at that high level- Yeah... um, without necessarily, you know- And it's controlled... 50:03 e- exas- yeah, it's controlled, it's not exacerbating anything that's, that's a- already there. 50:07 And without having any disillusions about, uh, or false, false illusions about like, uh, you know, "I'm gonna make all my, my overhead issues better." Yeah. Probably not, man. Yeah. Probably not. Yeah. 50:17 We can get it as good as we can get it, but how much time do you really have to train and get there, and h- versus how important is this to you, you know, in, in the long term, i- with all the other things you have to do- Yeah... 50:30 you know, in life and with your workout, so. Yeah. That's my case for the viking press. Yes, exactly. So we get through the viking press. Favorites with the contrast? Um, medicine ball tosses to the wall. 50:39 Yeah, back to the ball. Yeah. Yeah. So like an overhead, like almost like a wall ball type toss. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Do that, yeah. Yep. Anything else? 50:45 Um, I mean, I love some sort of push press if they can, if they, again, skill, if they can handle it. Um, so if they can do some sort of push press, whether this is the dumbbell or I've done it with kettlebells- Mm... 50:56 barbells, whatever. Um, I also love, uh, if you got two landmines for thinking that, I love, for more advanced, I love getting into like a split jerk with a landmine. Mm. 51:06 Kinda same thing, it allows that kinda more integrated, like full body component. I love it, yeah. Mm-hmm. 51:11 But same thing, if they, if the overhead is not as much skill as a full overhead and like split jerk or something like that. So I like that as well. 51:17 Yeah, I think that's g- that's a, that's a great point, particularly in the landmine, 'cause you're starting from that dead standstill- Yeah... at a, at basically the perfect position. You're preloaded and- Yeah... 51:26 you're just driving through that thing. I love that. Yeah, I like those. I mean, another case for bands, you know, and band work here, I think that's, it's another great one. Maybe some light dumbbell work. Mm-hmm. 51:34 Um, you know, could also, could also work. Doesn't have to be anything crazy. Don't have to be like handstand pushups and shit like that. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. You know, it doesn't, that's not a, it's not necessary. 51:41 I don't recommend those, quite frankly- No... for 99.9 million percent of the, of the population. So that kinda hits all the, all the things. I mean, those are things people can try and, and try out. 51:52 Like, one of the, one of the cool things that we, we, we've tried to do, 'cause while this is advanced, like we, we do try to implement this into our programs. 51:58 Obviously, if you're working with Ryan and you're, you're out there on the floor, he's gonna f- he's going to, you know, put that where it should be in your program in the way that makes the most sense for you. 52:07 But if you're, if you're kinda doing it yourself and trying to figure this out, um, we put this stuff into our, our r- uh, Red Dot Fitness Max program. Mm-hmm. Mm. And we, we... It's organized. 52:20 It's really well organized, and we explain to you what you're doing and why you're doing it, and try to walk people, walk people through it. We'll get back to RDF Max in a minute, but that's... 52:28 The, and RDF Max is a, more of our advanced program for that person that is m- uh, I would say inter- well into the intermediate, closer to the advanced level. Um, 52:40 and I say that not to say that it's not inclusive of anybody that wanted to try it, but, uh, you're gonna, you're probably not gonna reap the rewards of what that program has to offer you if you haven't done the base work, um, you know, the fundamental work first, which you would find in like a Red Dot Fitness Strong program, which is really kind of, I don't wanna say it's a prerequisite, but it's, it is, it does put you in the right position to transition right in. 53:03 Yeah. Weird how that worked. [laughs] But the point of this is- It's almost like a plug... is like who is this appropriate for? 53:07 We kinda talked about that a little bit and, and where it kind of might it go into your training. The contrast training? Yeah. How do you do this? 53:13 Like, what, what are the things that we need to leave people with in terms of that, that piece of it? Like, if, if they're thinking about it or where they might try it. 53:21 And I'll lead off with you mentioned like this isn't something you have to necessarily think about doing, like, and completely change your program- Mm... about, and even your whole workout for the day. 53:30 This is, you could do one set of this on the heavy, on your, on your chest day. Yeah. You know, whatever, you could implement it there. 53:37 But how else would we, would you guys suggest, you know, kind of getting somebody prepared, you know, of like a preparatory phase, either maybe mentally and/or physically, physiologically, to really be able to reap the rewards of this? 53:49 What, what are some maybe, I dare say, prerequisites to this? I mean, I, I, I think 53:57 this is a longer conversation [laughs] about, I think, when this is applied inappropriately and maybe too soon, is can they, can you do this motor pattern in, without a high velocity, without... Can you, can you squat? 54:09 Can you body weight squat? Can you goblet squat? Can you barbell squat? Like, if you can't, if you're still trying to master all those movements- Those basic movement patterns... 54:16 right, those basic movement patterns, and then let alone getting to some load, getting to some muscle mass- Mm... getting to all those things, then you need to stick with those until you can master those. 54:28 That, so you don't need to worry about this if, if you still have those, um, [clicks tongue] a lot going on with those, [laughs] let's say. Yeah, yeah. So. A lot going on. [laughs] Yeah. 54:35 Yeah, like we're not trying to do black belt shit when we're still a white belt. Yes. We're- That- Yeah... that's part of it. You know, um, I would agree with that 100%. 54:43 I'm just thinking about back in the day when I was working with individuals or athletes or individuals from more of a rehab perspective. 54:51 They had a really strong base, going back to your point, as far as working on the basic movement patterns before then we would put in some contrast training. 55:00 Because the contrast training component was at the end of their rehab, getting them r- ready back for sport performance. Yeah, return to play. So, mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. 55:10 Uh, you know, Ryan, you, you kind of brought up a point earlier just about, like, uh, how you had been introduced to it and then kind of your experience, you know, with it, and so had I. 55:20 Like, it wasn't, didn't seem very organized. Like, it was just kind of, like, thrown in there. It was something that we did for a week and didn't really under- understand it. 55:27 And while you can get some benefit from this training probably in a, in a time period like that if you just went through one full week of all your, you know, squat, squat, hinge, push, pull, you know, vertical press movements, you know, are you really gonna get anything out of this long-term? 55:41 And what have you really learned? And more specifically, what is your body learning? Mm-hmm. 'Cause you, the whole idea is give it the minimum effective dose to get the maximum result you're looking for, right? 55:49 So how, how do you, how do you kind of put this together? Um, I think, like, if you're gonna do this and you just wanna play and experiment, totally do that. Yeah. 55:56 Like, just play and experiment and, and put it in a little bit at a time. What should you expect? Not massive increases if you're gonna do it that way. Mm-hmm. You should also expect to be a little bit sore, right? Yeah. 56:06 Like, 'cause we are, we are taxing the system, the neur- the neuromuscular system, more specifically the tissue, uh, at a, at a much higher level. 56:16 We're, we're asking it to do more, and that, and we're talking about doing it through explosive or p- you know, plyometric-type movements as well as this high-level force production. 56:25 That can create issues for, for people. So there needs to be some type of preparatory phase going into this. 56:30 So if you've been kind of going through your, you know, you do your basic body, bodybuilding workout, and you've been working sort of in your hypertrophy phase, and y- you know, your repetition ranges are up there around 10, 12, maybe as many as 15, maybe as low as eight, and you're not really working at that 90%, right? 56:50 You're working maybe a more slow, controlled, you know, three, two, three type of tempo or something like that. That, that's, that's a brutal tempo. Yeah, yeah. 56:59 But something slow and controlled like that, like, you, you're, you're, you need to prepare your tissue for what you're about to taking, take it through. 57:06 And I would, I would enter into it through the strength training phase of whatever your program is, where you are pushing the heavier loads for more force production versus time under tension. Yeah. 57:18 Um, if you're f- if you're following me out there, bodybuilders or, you know, strength guys, uh, that's, that's, that's one thing to consider in terms of ramping your body up. Yeah. 57:27 I mean, I think it's just kind of building on that. Like, when we get, to really get an effective response from a low rep range, you have to have a high neurological output and response, right? 57:38 And so I think, to your point, getting used to being able to have an out- a high output, it's a very different style of training than, "Okay, can I kind of suffer through this, that set of 12, 15?" 57:49 It's not as much output on each rep. You need to learn how to actually have high output before then you add in another high output. 57:57 'Cause not even just being sore if you implement this too quickly, it's, it's very neurologically taxing. Taxing, yeah. You'll feel just, like, fatigued, like you just got ran over by a truck, you know? Right. 58:06 Like, you'll just feel, you know, fatigued, drained. Um- Yeah, so there's recovery debt that- Yes... that accumulates here on, on this, and you need to be recovered in order to maximize this. 58:15 It makes zero sense to go into a workout like this in debt. Yeah. It, the, you're, that's counterproductive. Yeah. So I, I, I love that point. I think that's, that's an important one. Um, the, 58:28 you know, I guess some of the other stuff that, that comes up for me in this is, you know, you guys mentioned don't do black belt [censored] before, you know, you're done being a white belt. 58:36 You know, how to kind of transition this direction, you know, and, and, or, and understanding, A, being a really good or an expert at the movement, the basic movement pattern, but preparing tissues and preparing neurologically. 58:49 Um, the, there is a mindset piece to this too. Um, and if, a- and you just touched on that, you know, with regard to the level of fatigue. You have to know how to go to the pain cave to a certain extent. Mm-hmm. 59:01 Now, it's, it's d- when I say pain cave, I just mean from, like, a, almost from, like, an internal intensity mindset perspective. Like, this is hard work. Mm-hmm. Or it should be hard work. 59:12 If it doesn't feel hard, if your heart rate didn't- You're not doing it right. Yeah. 59:15 If your heart rate didn't get up, if you're not breathing heavy at the end of this, if your hands don't go on hips and you're having to walk a lap to walk it off, then you're probably not applying this correctly. 59:25 Now, could you do, we mentioned, like, depending on the, the, the, the application that we're giving it to, specific to the client and their fitness level, um, and particular circumstance, that's going to look different on different people. 59:37 But this, this does feel, and it, it may not look difficult if you're watching the athlete do it. It was very few repetitions. But neurologically, there's a lot of demand there. 59:47 And so you have to be ready to kind of take yourself into that, into that mindset. Um, that's going back to Re- to Red Dot Fitness Max. Mm-hmm. 59:57 We try to kind of lead people through this process and prep them with the capacity-building pha- phases- Yeah... 1:00:03 so that by the time they get there, they do or they have at least, uh, tuned up their energy systems and their recovery systems. 1:00:11 And, you know, this doesn't take into account any nutrition, sleep, stress mitigation, all that kind of stuff. But we've tried to tune them up in a, in a good way to, to be ready for this type of exercise. Yeah. 1:00:22 But I, I can't change your mental or intestinal fortitude. So this is something that, you know, you need to, you need to be prepared for there. 1:00:29 Um, also, you know, this is something that you should be prepared to kind of step back and evaluate and track. Like, what is actually happening? 1:00:39 Am I just stepping into the pain cave and doing sexy [censored] on the floor and impressing my friends and posting cool videos on Instagram? Or am I actually getting something out of this? 1:00:49 Because don't equate, quote unquote, "hard work" with an actual result. Mm-hmm. A positive result or the result that you're looking for, and don't make any predeterminations about what you're getting. 1:00:59 And also, don't marry yourself to any one thing. I'll, uh, th- uh, let's go back to, like, the, um, [smacks lips] the push thing, like where we did the bench press to med ball press. Uh-huh. A chest pass. 1:01:11 Maybe that's not working for you the same way or you're not getting the same training effect from that that you would get from the plyo pushup with the clap. Mm-hmm. Right? 1:01:18 And so unless you've walked yourself through this process a little bit, um, it's, don't m- don't marry yourself to any combination of exercises. We've talked about this before. Yeah. 1:01:27 Your body doesn't know whether it's a barbell bench press or a pushup. Yeah. It just understands that you are being challenged or not challenged in a certain way, and it will respond appropriately to that. 1:01:36 So choose things, don't marry yourself to things, experiment, play, track, see where your body is, and, and your performance is actually taking you. Look, if you're just doing this to have fun, then fuck it. 1:01:49 Do it to have fun. Yeah. Like, have a great time. 1:01:51 But if you're really looking for a performance benefit, tracking is, I, I believe, paramount when you start getting into these advanced type of, uh, of applications like, like this is. 1:02:02 So, um, man, that was a lot, you know, in terms of what we have, what, you know, what's going on there with, um, with the contrast training. Uh, anything we left out? Any... 1:02:14 I mean, we talked about pitfalls, we talked about risk, benefits. Uh, maybe talk about w- how often you would do this or implement this type of training. Yeah. 1:02:22 You know, 'cause we were just talking- Let's talk about it... about recovery debt. Let's talk about it. So this isn't necessarily something that you would do every day of the week for, you know, um, your upper body. 1:02:33 Right. You know? Yeah. I mean, again, this is where there's, again, there's always nuance, and it depends of, like, where the, you know, feeling out as a coach, where's my client? How's their recovery? 1:02:42 Even for myself, where's my client, how mu- how's my recovery? But where, like, two to three times a week max, if you're really gonna get that max intent. And you can go back to, like, body part, right? 1:02:54 So you can hit upper twice a week, and then do two lower twice a week for some contrast training, so. You mean exercises. Two... 1:03:01 Yeah, uh, and even again, even exercises, it might, I'll, most I ever do is maybe two- Right... exercises- Right... of this intent in a workout. 1:03:10 You shouldn't be, you know, every single exercise you do in your program- [laughs]... you're trying to contrast now just 'cause you've heard this is cool and I'm gonna start doing this now. Great point. 1:03:17 And, and I see that still where, "How can I contrast this exercise? How can I contrast exci- this exercise?" 1:03:22 If you're not getting a good effect in, there's not a high output, and later in the workout you're not gonna get a good, um, progression or good im- effect Yeah, we talked about this. 1:03:30 There's a, there's a large cost, uh- Yes... to this. 1:03:32 There's a high demand, which is, is, a, a high cost, and that cost could mean taking away from other workouts, other areas that you're, you're really trying to focus on, and it could impact you in daily life as well- Mm... 1:03:44 in terms of, you know, what's going on from a recovery perspective, cognitive ability, like, just being uncomfortable, feeling tired, uh, you know, actually physically being tired, all that kind of stuff. 1:03:53 So that, that's there for me. I do, I, right now, I've picked it back up in the last two weeks. I, I'm only t- I've only pl- uh, planned to do it one time a week. Yeah. And actually, it's on my, it's on a weekend. 1:04:05 So I'll do it on the weekend where I'm not impacted by anything else, and it's just that. Like, and so, to, very specifically, that workout is a, i- is going to be, it's, and it's mostly lower extremity. 1:04:17 I'm not doing anything up, so it's either a hinge or a, or a squat- Mm-hmm... type movement. 1:04:21 And it's, and I'm only picking one, and I'm doing the, the, so I'm doing that, and then followed by my plyometric movement, and that's the workout. Yeah. 1:04:30 Around some mobility work that I'm doing for my shoulders and my upper extremity. 1:04:34 Um, also some run mechanics that I'm working on right now 'cause I'm trying to get, you know, sort of my, like [laughs] my feet back under me a little bit. Uh, and a little bit of lateral work. 1:04:43 Um, some kind of, I would call it s- let's call it speed agility quickness work, uh, so my footwork's a little bit better out there on the range and some of the things I'm trying to do out there, so, and get better at there, um, in life. 1:04:53 It's been a li- been a little while. It feels fucking awkward. [laughs] Like, it's- Mm-hmm. [laughs] It feels awkward. 1:04:57 And I have to tell you, like, just last weekend on the Sunday I did this, like, I'm sore, and sore in kind of interesting places. Like, my ankles, right, my peroneals down low. Yeah. [laughs] Below my knees. 1:05:07 Everything else feels pretty good, but- Yeah... uh, but down low I'm- Those little, those little stabilizers, those little things that don't get used on the other stuff. Y- Yeah. Yeah. Oh, damn. I'm, I'm, I'm hurting. 1:05:16 [laughs] So that, I mean, and it, it feels great. Yeah. Like, it, it feels great, but I'm still sore. It's Wednesday when we're recording this. Mm-hmm. I did that on Sunday. 1:05:24 Um, I'm hoping by the end of today it starts to dissipate a little bit 'cause I'm usually a 36 to 48-hour DOMS person now. Yeah. 1:05:30 Um, it didn't used to be like that, but it is, whatever, my advanced age, that's what's happening. [laughs] So I'm dealing with it. But those are, uh, those are things. 1:05:37 So that's how I'm programming it into my, my, my workouts right now. 1:05:41 And then we're actually working on some different programming that I wanna test, and so this is actually prepping me to be ready to have the capacity to truly test that program when I get there. 1:05:53 That's where my mindset is. So. So look, if you are looking to, uh, maybe get into... 1:05:59 Before we, we, we, we, we close out here, is there anything we need to do to, to, as Steven, our good friend Steven say, tie a bow on this and put it to bed? 1:06:07 Um, I, I think it's just this can be a way to change your training, but make sure it's appropriate for you, and you'll know if it's appropriate for you. Like, get, listen to feedback from your body. 1:06:17 Listen to, hey, are, you're trying to do that three times a week and you're still sore from the last time. 1:06:22 Like, try to feel out to those markers, but it can be a, a great way to change up your training and, and make it e- exciting again. Yeah. Uh, it's a great point, just kind of adding some s- little spice to the- Yeah. Mm. 1:06:32 To, to the mix. 1:06:33 Uh, yeah, if you're looking to find a l- like, a little bit longer term, more organized program that's periodized over as much as four months, um, you guys, you know, you might check out, uh, Red Dot Fitness Max by going to rdfmax.com. 1:06:47 When you get there, it talks a little bit about the program. It's four months. You get all the workouts. You get video demonstrations. 1:06:52 You're also gonna get a, a, a guide, uh, a w- and workbook that allows you to kind of, if you're, if you want to know, you know, what's going on, like, w- what's happening with the physiology, why we've organized the plan. 1:07:03 We, we put a lot of time and effort into building that out so that people could read and absorb it and, and empower themselves to be able to apply the stuff in a way that's meaningful. 1:07:12 Uh, there's extra bonus, uh, video tutorial information in there 'cause some, uh, uh... And sorry, I mean, videos that are linked in there. 1:07:20 Because we understand some of that reading at this point, like, getting down the line, you've just heard us talk about this for an hour, it's ki- it gets kinda heavy, and we try not to bore people with it. 1:07:28 So we try to, uh, we've done some videos on some of, some ways to apply this, these different concepts, or let's just say more advanced concepts, that include demonstrations and how you might look at it within there. 1:07:40 Um, it's super easy. You can access it from your phone or from your laptop. You can print everything out if you're, if you're one of those people. Track it there. 1:07:47 Um, if, if you, if you still like pencil and paper, I'm c- I'm, I'm that dude. Uh, I still like pencil and paper a lot. But, um, it's, it's, uh, it's super accessible and, uh, it's, you can get 20% off. 1:07:59 So go to rdfmax.com. Use code MAX20 for, for 20% off that program. [upbeat rock music] Thank you for tuning into this episode of Iron Sights. 1:08:10 If you enjoyed our conversation, you can support our mission by hitting the subscribe button, leaving a review, and sharing the podcast with a friend. I'll see you on the next episode.
