Transcript 0:00 [upbeat rock music] Welcome to Iron Sights After Dark. 0:06 During my 25-plus years in the fitness industry, I've always been passionate about expanding my physical, mental, and hard skills to be prepared for whatever life might throw at me. 0:15 From fitness to firearms and beyond, taking a holistic approach to being prepared has led me on a journey to seek and share both knowledge and skills from expert resources in the civilian, LEO, military, and first responder communities. 0:29 The mission of this podcast is to help others expand their capabilities and knowledge of preparedness while building strength in the community that shares similar goals and values. 0:38 So ultimately, we contribute together and grow together. 0:42 [upbeat rock music] So we're here at the TTPOA Conference 2026, Round Rock, Texas. 1:00 We're at the Kalahari Resort. We got, like, over 1,000 attendees here, right? Like, th- participants, and that doesn't include... I don't even... I, I lost count of the vendors. It just, it spilled out into the hallway. 1:11 255, I think, is what it was- I think all of them are here... last time. That's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Uh- They're all here... I told, I told, uh, Dan last year, I go, "You guys are gonna need a bigger boat. 1:18 I don't know- [laughs]... how you're gonna do this." So, um, uh, a- already people are... There's all kinds of stuff happening that would typically be happening. You guys got debriefs. Yeah. There's a vendor show. 1:27 Uh, there's a, a, just a, a, a, there's a, a camaraderie piece. Like- Yeah... the, the, the folks get together. They get to see their friends, talk business- Yeah... 1:36 um, talk stories and, and just reconnect with people, which I think is probably one of the better parts of this conference of all the conferences I've, I g- I've been to ever and all kinds of different things. 1:44 This one definitely has a different feel, but there's a match being run right now. There's the- Yep... two, two, um, well, over two days you guys got matches- Yeah... running right now. 1:52 Uh, you guys just went out there and shot that. I wanna hear a little bit more about that. Yeah, we shot that this morning. 1:56 But, um, I don't know, maybe you wanna talk about, uh, the Pastor Foundation, George Pastor Foundation, and kinda where we're sitting and how this thing all kinda wound up. Yeah. 2:03 So, uh, in the past we do these podcasts in a, a suite that we, uh, rent out. So all the hosts are in the suite, and that's all. And no one gets to see it. No one gets to be a part of it. 2:15 So, uh, we've been asked, uh, and tried to figure out, how do we get this involved in the, uh, conference. 2:22 And so last year, after talking with Scott, when you came out, we kinda started brainstorming like, "Hey, how can we do this?" And we got ahold of Kim Pastor. Like, "Hey, Kim, here's what we're looking at doing. 2:32 We wanna build a booth. We wanna do this." And she's like, "Hey, I got you." We're like, "Yep." 2:36 And we just gave that to Kim, and so Kim, we really do appreciate everything you do for us and everything you have done, and I, I can't wait to see what five years from now is gonna be, 2:48 your foundation, what it's gonna be doing. Uh, you're gonna... You keep kicking open doors. You don't take no for an answer. So from someone who cares about this industry, thank you. 2:59 Uh- Well, thank you for that, 'cause I care just as much, and I'll keep kicking down doors. Yeah. And it's, um, my sacrifice, the way you guys sacrifice, and together we're gonna change the game and make- Yeah... 3:09 make things great. So this is so much- [laughs]... fun for me to see you guys in there. This is awesome. Yeah. So anybody who's, who's seen the podcast booth, all these panels were shipped from Atlanta, Georgia. 3:18 [laughs] A guy drove out and dropped them off, and they were all wrapped up, and all the furniture that you see here was in boxes. 3:24 So me and Kim hauled it up here, unloaded it, opened all these boxes, put the stuff together. It was a nine-hour project, so, uh, yeah, there was a lot of blood. I don't wanna take this thing down now, so- [laughs]... 3:35 it's really hard. [laughs] Back next year, just leave it. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] We're just gonna leave it here. Yeah, we're gonna leave it. Um, and stuff. 3:40 So it's really cool how all this has evolved over the years, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Um, and, and this is one of my favorite times of the year is this, is this conference. Um, so yeah, that's... 3:51 It's the biggest one we've had so far. Yeah. It's- So... you guys are gonna need a bigger boat. Yeah. Uh, and that said, I mean, like, I sat down with you guys, like, a year ago, right? 3:58 And got to meet Matt, Matt Smith over here at the other end of the table, the, uh, the co-host of, of the show, and, uh, it was interesting. Like, I didn't know what to expect. 4:07 I kinda walked into that podcast last minute. It was with you two guys and Brian Williams- Yeah... 4:10 the Unicorn Chief, who is actually gonna be on tomorrow, uh, with our other guests who we'll, we'll chat up here in a second. But I learned so much from Matt- Mm... in that, in that podcast. 4:19 And it was interesting 'cause he was kinda sitting over there quiet, and then he would quietly kind of interject stuff. Yeah. And the stuff he was saying was like, like brain ninjas, right? 4:28 Dropping into my head going- [laughs] That's right... "All right, these..." In terms of the thought process, right? And on the, on the topic that we were talking about. 4:34 And if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. It's a great podcast. These guys do a really great job. Yeah. But, um, Matt, it's good to see you again, brother. Yep. Appreciate it. Thank you. 4:41 Well, well- Well, on that note, though, in his contract, he only has so many words that he's allowed to speak- Yeah, got it... 'cause he's a prima donna. He's like- [laughs]... 4:47 "I gotta save this beautiful voice of mine." Yeah. So that's Matt. So this year we have more words that he can say, so. Yeah. No, I enjoyed it. You know- That's-... 4:53 it was a great time meeting you, and you know, and though different backgrounds, you know, the commonality, some of the stuff we talked about and how it's just, it's just solving problems. Yep. 5:02 You know, and whether you're doing it at your job, our job, whatever, and, uh, if we can get together and do that, man, it's awesome. So I enjoyed it. 5:08 Glad to have you ba- uh, Brandon told me you were coming back, and I was really thrilled to hear that you were gonna be back, so. I, I'm honored to be here. Yeah. Looking forward to next year already. Yeah. Yeah, same. 5:14 Yeah. Same. Yeah. This has been great. And, and Scott, man, just thank you for all that you do for this community. Yeah. You're, you're changing things. 5:20 I know, uh, your podcast and just how you dive into whatever subject it is. 5:26 It's, it's, it's unique 'cause most people don't want to know about the person they're talking with, and you do, and that's a, that's a, a very unique gift. 5:34 'Cause most people, I'll tell you everything you wanna know about me, and they never invest back. And, and, and you do that. You've been in my house. Uh- Mm. 5:42 So you're, you're one of my friends, so I, I do appreciate all that you do for us, and you're part of this family and the TTPOA. And all the equipment, that was Scott, uh, doing this, so this is... 5:53 We couldn't do this without him as well, so we do appreciate that- Man-... what you do... I appreciate those kind words. Thanks. So, uh, like I said- Yeah... I always say this, like, I'm, I'm honored to be here. 6:00 I'm not quite sure how I got here. [laughs] But it wouldn't be without the support and the help- Yeah... of guys like you, and being invited and trusted- Yeah... to do this stuff, so thank you. Yeah. 6:08 And then, uh, Matt- Man, welcome back. Mr. Matt Francke. No, thank you. The notorious Matt Francke. Oh. This, this is I think, what, your fourth one with us or something? At TTPOA? Yeah, the fourth podcast maybe. 6:20 Yeah, I think it's the fourth one. Was, was the first one that you did, was it in our training facility- Yeah... that had no air sh- air conditioner? 6:25 And I think we titled it Your, Your Back Size Like a Cargo Net or something. [laughs] I think that's what it said. Yeah. [laughs] Looks like a dirty cargo net back there. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 6:36 Man, that was a long time ago- Yeah... it feels like. That was, that, that was the first one, so. Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's been great. Yeah. Glad to be back, man. I'm glad to be at the conference. Yeah. 6:43 Repeat offender. So we're tied. Yeah. So it's been... This is actually, Matt might not remember this, but this is the fourth time we've collabed on a podcast too. We had- Oh, yeah... 6:51 the first one that we did, which, you know, I publicly thank you, Matt, for, for making a trip out to Las Vegas when I was in Shot Show my first time. 6:59 Uh, he, he came out and on the very last day, it was a very long week for him. He was training in Arizona and drove over or flew over like last minute after he finished up his course to meet me late in the afternoon. 7:11 Like, it was on a Friday or Saturday or something like that. And, um, that, uh, Matt was on my bucket list for a long time for a lot of reasons, but, uh, we had a really great conversation then. 7:19 And then you were on again, we were at Combatives Summit together. Yep. Yeah, we did the Combatives one. Yeah, sat with John and, and, uh, um, and, uh, I think it was, it was Jeff from Tenacore. Yep, yep. 7:30 Jeff Mauer from Tenacore, and then had John again with, uh, with Mike Panone. You guys came out and visited. 7:36 I think you guys were teaching a course together up in my neck of the woods out in California, and you stopped in and we did another one, so we're tied. I like it. So that... Yeah, we're, we're tied. Good. 7:45 Uh, well, Matt, you've been a, a huge friend to, to me and to the law enforcement community, so we just appreciate what you've been doing. 7:53 Uh, I told you earlier, like, you're the one that kinda started in the law enforcement in my community, at least in my area in Texas, and got me turned on to the whole practical side of shooting. 8:04 Hey, here, here's how we put performance into shooting. Um, and we get better this way. And you came across... Hey, Graham, how you doing? Uh, [laughs] 8:14 you, you, you came across just officers throughout the, the, um, time of your training and, and put us all together in this tier one cop, uh, thread, and it just keeps growing. 8:24 And it's really neat to see just all the knowledge that's shared and just all the camaraderie that... There's guys across from all over the country that I'm like, "I've never met this guy, but I know who he is now." 8:33 Or we come to conferences and there's like seven or eight of them that came out just to help out with the hit factor match. 8:38 Some of those guys had to take off their own time because their department didn't give them, uh, training time. 8:43 So I mean, that's the commitment level that these guys are, are, are involved in, and I think that's the same thing that you're into, is like, 8:51 you told me early on, "Hey, Matt, I'll meet your commitment level, you know, 100%." And, and I think that's important. I kinda, I kinda adopted that as well, uh, when I started mentoring people. 9:01 So thank you for what you do. I know you get sometimes a, a bad rap for you being... Did Kendall just fall down? [laughs] What the hell? Vinnie, did you push her down? 9:13 [laughs] I turned my back for one second and she's falling. Coming out of the booth. [laughs] Yeah. I turned my- Was there a hair tripper? [laughs] I, I, I stole a suppressor, so it's okay. Oh, okay. Good, good, good. 9:23 I stole one. Uh, but sometimes guys will say, you know, "Well, you talk shit about cops and this and that. You're not a cop." And I'm like, "You don't know Matt like I know Matt or some of the other guys know Matt." 9:32 You care so much about law enforcement. And it's like me, man. There's a standard, and when you below, go below that standard as a cop, I get, I get offended by it. And, and you're the same way. 9:41 You're like, "Man, just put in the work. Don't talk the shit, put in the work, and, and everything washes out for itself." So with that being said, it's not kissing your ass, but I do appreciate the friendship. 9:51 I do appreciate just what you do for this community, man. Oh, my pleasure. You know, I think it's, you know, the bad rap doesn't really affect me. No, it doesn't. 10:00 [laughs] You know, it's, I think it's, it's more a, it's more a reflection on the people that don't like to be s- have truth spoken to them and- Mm-hmm... 10:08 and understand like, hey, recognizing, like, where you're at, like, that's the step one for development, right? To get better. Yeah. 10:15 Um, you know, and don't believe your own hype and get out of your echo chambers and stuff like that, which, uh, I'm glad I'm able to do it. Glad to be a part of TTPOA. Yeah. 10:23 Um, you know, and, and share this time with you guys. Yeah. And then, uh, the other rumor is you're the keynote speaker. Yeah. I am. I think- It's wild... I'm, I'm waiting for Dan to realize how bad he fucked that up. 10:34 The mistakes he's made. [laughs] So, uh- I, I do wanna know when... So you and Chris Palmer are good friends. When he spoke a few years ago, he looked fucking amazing. Suit. 10:43 Are you gonna be as good looking as him or not? I do. I did bring some actual nice clothes. Wow, man. So. I like it. Vans still, though? No. Vans? I, uh- Tux and Vans? No. [laughs] No. Did you bring a tuxedo? 10:54 I mean, it's a tuxedo T-shirt, all right? Yeah. [laughs] It says that I- I love it... am relaxed, but I'm also formal, but I'm always ready to party. That's right. I love it. [laughs] I love it. I love it. 11:04 So, uh- Madly taking notes. [laughs] So our, our thought process with this... Oh, okay, here's our first question. Thank you. 11:10 So our thought process to this when I got with Matt, he does the Redneck Live on his IG, and, uh, we kinda wanted to do that and also like a Charlie Kirk version of come in and ask questions, and we're gonna d- read questions that we got from the, uh, IG post we posted last night. 11:25 So hey, we got our first question. So who are you, man? Tell us about you. So my name is Justin Torres. So I'm the owner of, uh, Battlegrounds CQB House- Okay... um, in San Antonio, Texas. Okay. 11:34 I'm also a police officer in the San Antonio area. All right. Uh, I work for this really, really small town. We have about 15 officers total. 11:40 Um, so I built Battlegrounds, um, really just to get the smaller agencies to get training. Mm-hmm. Um, it's a 7,000 square foot building, and I put a lot of modular walls in there. Oh, wow. 11:53 One of the things I wanted to ask is what is something that you guys would think would be beneficial for, um, the shoot house to have 12:01 to make it more practical for law enforcement or whoever needs to go in there a- as far as, um, people getting trained and people that are actually in their training- 12:12 So, so I, I think from what I see most of the time with shoot house construction is that it's very unique to shoot house construction, right? 12:19 It doesn't really mimic what an actual, you know, residence looks like or a commercial thing. It's kinda has elements of both things, right? So, you have longer hallways and maybe bigger rooms, um, and things like that. 12:31 It doesn't really matter, you know, what the house, the layout of the house. 12:36 You know, I think it, it would make the most sense to take a larger house and just build a shoot house based off a residential structure, you know? 12:46 Um, 'cause you can still get the elements of commercial construction, schools, and things like that out of those houses. 12:52 But the primary thing for the law enforcement world, right, is s- warrant service and residences that are, that are small and able to hit from multiple breaches. You know, that would be a, a huge benefit. 13:03 Um, and then I think, obviously, I know it's... for a lot of agencies or departments, it's a bridge too far, but, you know, to be honest, live-fire CQB is completely different than doing CQB sims on paper, you know? 13:17 I understand that, you know, departments and agencies do that for safety reasons and time of train. There's a lotta different, um, issues that drive them to using, like, sims on paper or force-on-force. 13:30 But I think what needs to happen is, like, departments need to build actual live-fire shoot houses, right? 13:37 With no bullet traps, with walls that are ballistic, where the targets can go on the walls, 'cause obviously there's a huge element on the training side. 13:44 If you have bullet traps, that's the indicator that there's a target there to shoot, right? And you, you lose a processing value in the training. But live-fire shoot house is really kinda mandatory in my mind. 13:56 You guys do it for real live, and then what I see is with force-on-force training, you know, that's a whole separate beast, but sims on paper, guys will attempt to do things and try to do things with a rifle because it's sims that they absolutely know they cannot do live, right? 14:13 And that is a huge disconnect in terms of application and training. Um, so I think, you know, the layout or whatever, don't fixate on the layout of the shoot house or the, the structure, whatever. 14:23 Anything that has hallways, and rooms, and doors, right, for you to work all of the different elements that you know exist in CQB, that's fine. 14:32 It's really how you conduct the training and how you are holding guys accountable. You know, how do you score it, right? That would be, like, the first thing. Like, how do you actually score CQB? 14:41 Um, you know, and that understanding and a- the actual training methodology of how I like to train CQB, I think that's the most important thing over really what the structure is. 14:50 So, what you're saying is you're gonna put on a class here in, uh, in Battlegrounds- [laughs] There's the question... so you can show us how it's done. Right. There's the question. I, I would... 14:57 You know, I love coming to Texas. I have no problems coming down, you know, and teaching there. 15:02 Um, you know, we've been doing CQB classes in Ohio because we have so much infrastructure there to do it, 'cause r- in reality, I like to do two days of shooting, three days of CQB. 15:12 It's a five-day course, and it, it makes it really hard to train for three days at the pace that we train all in the same house. 15:20 But I would love to come down, you know, in one-day information shares or two days, things like that, in a, in a sim shoot house. Yeah, I have no problem. I would love to do that. Definitely gotta set it up. 15:31 Um, you know, obviously with, with Cam and her, her foundation, uh, it's definitely something that we can do. Um, I'm sup- super big on just getting people out there. 15:39 I wanna get, not my name out there, but I wanna get, you know, training out there. 15:42 I want people to really, like, grab ahold of what's being taught, because there's a lot of instructors out there that teach really, really good stuff, but people are afraid to, to, um, take those classes because, like, if it's a regular patrolman, like, "Oh, well, I don't wanna go to that class because I can't keep up with that." 15:58 Or- Yeah... "I don't know the basics, and I gotta get the basics down first." Yeah. And so just kinda bridging that gap, how would s- how would you bridge that gap from a patrolman to a operator? 16:08 I'd, I'd teach it the same way, right? Until, until a, you know, a SWAT team can show that they can do technically perfect runs in a very clean shoot house, you stay on the basics. 16:20 And I would say, like, you know, just the way how I conceptualize and look at hard skills feeding into TTPs, every... CQB is a very basic thing, right? There's no advanced anything in it, right? 16:32 Guys will overcomplicate it because they... You know, it's, it, it has to have some sort of value in terms of a product that I'm selling, but I, I, I say it in every class that I do. 16:43 I think if people realized how simple CQB is, they would be disappointed. [laughs] Now, it's not easy, but it is very simple- Yeah... in terms of what we're trying to accomplish and what we're trying to do. Yeah. 16:56 So I, I think it... You, you stay on the basics, right? 16:59 And then what becomes advanced is how well, how fast, how accurate, how precise, you know, how hard can you execute something with accountability, control, and performance, but you're only still doing basic things. 17:13 Perfect. Right? I'm moving through a doorway, and I'm moving to a spot. Mm-hmm. That's it. It's, it's just that simple. [laughs] A- again, I appreciate you guys' time. Yeah. Thank you so much. It means a lot. Yeah. 17:24 Appreciate it. No, thank you for the question, man. Yeah. A- I got, I got a follow-up question to that, actually. Um, so I had a, a group of guys on here. 17:29 I had Chris Kerrison here yesterday, and, um, Tommy and Kevin from Rogue Targets, and this, this came up, uh, just with regard to targets inside shoot houses. 17:39 And you mentioned something there about the bullet traps, and so that's an indicator that there's a target there, that being what I'm processing. 17:45 So when you walk into the room, you're looking, and you see that target trap, so you know it moves you to the next step in the process. I am going to be shooting that target. 17:53 And so w- what, uh, the discussion started around kinda w- how Kevin started developing his targets, but guys were cutting out the paper from around the silhouette or whatever the target was so that you didn't see that pre-indicator of that, that margin on the paper when you're, you know, you're starting to move. 18:10 Big rectangle. Yeah, the big rectangle or whatever. Yeah. I wonder, I wonder 18:13 I just, I wonder about that question and, and it's a little bit, maybe it's a little bit basic, but I wonder advice for guys like this in terms of, like, what their, what their target setup looks like in their... and 18:24 how to make that better. You know, I mean, he's asking a question like, "How do I make this the best?" 18:28 Like- I, I think in terms, right, you, you know, you start guys off at, you know, remove, remove that when we're looking at, you know, exe- technical per- technically perfect execution of the technique we're trying to do, whatever that is, right? 18:43 We wanna remove discrimination, right? You... Very gross discrimination, brown targets and white targets. Brown targets. Yeah. It's the targets with- Shoots and no shoots. Yeah. Right? 18:50 I like USPSA, um, uh, metric targets because they have, it's a humanoid target with a head, and it has scoreable zones that now you can actually apply some sort of score to it. 19:00 Um, the benefit of that, it's a very plain target, right? So it allows you to still train the vision piece, something that we stress all the time in shooting. 19:08 Can you be visually precise with visual control, connect to the right part of the target? 19:12 The discrimination piece is easy, and I would argue for anyone that that discrimination piece on white versus brown is very similar to discriminating an actual person, right? You're gonna do the same things, right? 19:24 I have a loop that I go through. It's demeanor, hands, decision, right? 19:27 And I assess demeanor, look at the hands, make a decision whether I'm gonna leave or check up on him, or I'm gonna address him because I've met that threshold that he needs something. Mm-hmm. 19:38 Um, and I think white and brown does that. As soon as you go two, two-dimensional photographic targets- Interesting... you know, now you're adding another layer to it, right? Um, that guys have to be precise. 19:50 You know, you can train a lot of vision piece with photographic targets, 'cause as we've all seen it with, like, sims on paper even, or even live fire on paper, the guns get terrorized and that gets shot. 20:01 'Cause guys look at the target, and as they discriminate, they assess demeanor, they look the hands, they connect to the gun, and then they start shooting- Yeah... and they shoot the gun. Got it. Right? 20:08 And that is something that you feed back into training. You have no, you know, visual control is you're not in control of what you're doing visually. 20:16 'Cause you're connecting to a part of the target that you're not supposed to hit. Um, so I think when you understand all that and you learn all of this stuff back on the range, not in the house- Yeah... 20:27 that you, you start to understand, like, it is very, very important what type of targets that we shoot. Mm-hmm. I've been a fan lately, uh, of this company that makes AI targets. 20:37 I think I bought 300 targets, 50 no shoots and 200 shoots, and not one target is the same. Yeah, same. Yeah. Right. That's, I, I- Yeah... think that's what I was asking about. 20:45 And they're made in size-wise to fit really nicely on USPSA paper. So they give you different demeanors, different hands, different signatures. Right. But it's imp- That's a progression. Yeah. 20:56 It's impossible to memorize any target. Right. Right. You know? So you're not seeing... 20:59 The, the, the talk yesterday was the, the lady with the '80s do with the big glasses that has this, holding the pistol, the revolver, right? I could tell you. That everybody's seen a million times. Yeah. 21:06 We all, all know all of the targets, right? Yeah. It's like the guy with the yellow jacket. Yeah. That's a shoot target. Dog the Bounty Hunter behind the couch. Yeah. [laughs] Oh, yeah. 21:13 There's, like, the same 27 targets I've shot- The construction guy- Yeah... with the construction zone background or whatever. Yeah, for over a decade. The guy with the light, you know? 21:20 It's- And then you have the crazy white trash woman with the... You're, you're like, "Yeah, that's, I know her." Yeah. Yeah, that's always... You know. Yeah. Love it. Yeah. Well, thanks for, man, for the question. 21:28 Uh, really do. You're the bravest one out here so far. [laughs] Yeah. There, there were some other questions on the, uh- Yeah. Yeah... on, on Instagram. Yeah. Let me look at that real quick. I got... 21:38 I didn't bring my readers either. It's gonna be- You want me to read them? It's gonna be interesting. Yeah, that's actually, that's an, that's an interesting point. 21:43 I mean, I've been in several shoot houses, and you're right about that. It's always trying to make... The, we're trying to do a lot of things in there, right? We're trying to give- Yeah... 21:52 like, this is our place to work, so we have to have all these different exposures or whatever, but none of them have been the way that you, you, you describe. 21:58 Actually, there was one that I was into in South Florida once that had, it was so large, they had kind of different sections in there where it was a lot tighter, closer hallways- Yeah... 22:06 shorter hallways, less doors, you know, that kind of stuff. I think it's, it's not just shoot houses. It's any time you, you know, you start... 22:15 We, we were having this c- you know, CQB isn't a unique, isn't a tactic for a shoot house specifically. It's any time you're in close proximity and you're fighting. It's around vehicles. It can be in open air. 22:27 It, it, it doesn't, it's not specific to a house. But when guys do that, when they go into a shoot house, they're trying to maximize all of the training, right? So it becomes a cart before the horse mentality, right? 22:42 It would be like we, we take a quarterback and we're trying to get him very, very nuanced on reading a defense, right? Um, calling audibles on offense- Mm-hmm... 22:52 you know, and assessing what the defense is doing, and then making adjustments on the fly and ignoring the fact that he can only throw the fucking ball 10 yards. Yeah. Gotcha. Right? 23:01 It's like you have to do certain things at certain times, right? 23:05 And if, if when we talk about the execution of a technique, if the technique doesn't just run in the background, if it's not something that is ingrained, and I hate to s- but, like, in your personality, like, you can just regurgitate this over and over, then talking about the what-ifs and, and possible contingencies is an absolute waste of time, and you're muddying the waters of the training that you're doing. 23:27 Yeah. Right? And I, and I think that becomes most CQB training. Mm. Right? You can be technically perfect in a very vanilla house, and guys don't understand how important it is to do that. 23:38 Because how that feeds in when the environment gets more chaotic, you all of a sudden are not gonna get more technically perfect. Yeah. 23:44 The other interesting point I took away from that was the breaching part with regard to, like, window breaching specifically. Yeah. Like, what's going on on the perimeter- Mm-hmm... right? And, and adding that in. 23:53 'Cause I've been in places where there's window cutouts and stuff, but never actually saw anybody... The only thing that that window was there for was either it was blocked- Yeah... right? 24:02 Like, this is out of play- Right... kind of thing. There wasn't, like, this is also happening on the outside while we're working on the inside. Mm. And I'm sure that happens in places. I've just never seen it. Mm. 24:10 I don't have nearly the experience you guys have. I, you know, I'm an idiot. [laughs] But at the, at the same, with very few exposures. But I think that's a g- a good one if you're looking at building a place. 24:19 And to your point with regard to agencies building, building these things, if they're gonna put the money into it, this should be part of, part of the deal. I never really thought of that. 24:26 It's usually like we get a, an abandoned warehouse somewhere that's being leased to us by the city or given to you by some pr- pro-... 24:33 pro-police landowner or property owner or whatever, and we just make the best out of what we got. Yeah. Uh. S- so my 21 years on the team, our department's never built anything for us. It's all been us. Yep. 24:44 S- digging in the trash can, having someone who had a connection here and all that. Dallas, y'all are the same way. Like y- y'all's facility, y'all... Hell, you, for a long time you didn't even have one. 24:53 You were using ours. Yeah. Then y'all finally got one, but who built it? Yeah. Who's continuing to maintain it? I know. Who picks up the trash? Yeah, of one of us, yeah. It's like it's, it's, it's insane that... 25:02 And it's not just us, it's, it's... You look around everywhere, it, it, it's crazy what 25:09 n- they don't do for, for u- Because they know we're self-motivated people, so they're now like, "Well, we're not gonna have to do it because they're gonna do it themselves." 25:17 So we're our own worst enemies, but if not, then who's gonna do it? So we have to. So. I th- I think the best way to look at it is when you, when you... 25:24 If you look at teams that have access to very, very good live fire shoot houses, and you see where that team is in terms of progression, even as a part-time team versus a, a full-time team that doesn't have that, it's night and day. 25:38 Mm-hmm. Right? I've trained with, uh, a team up in Ohio that has access to a, you know, tier one quality live fire shoot house. You know, they can do a lot in it, they can breach, you know, shoot live rounds. 25:54 And to see where they are at as a baseline metric of skill versus other teams that do not have access, that never get to do live fire CQB, it's night and day. Yeah. Well. Yeah. Um. Well, d- Yeah, go ahead. 26:08 I was gonna say, coming onto our team, we have a live fire shoot house. We're one of the few ones that do. And very early on, you realize you're gonna spend some time in here. Mm-hmm. 26:16 And you're doing your walkthroughs, and then it progresses to live fire, and you're doing the basics, and they're watching you. 26:21 And, like, that, you're building upon where that trust where they actually let you do something live on a r- real op, and you had to do that. And, like, I spent hours and hours in that shoot house. 26:31 And we would go to the range, like, "Okay, for the first 90 minutes we're gonna be over here. We're gonna do this, we're gonna do this." And so they're imprinting into you, you know, the senior guys, what they want. 26:41 And, uh, somebody said to me a long time ago, "CQB can be hard. It's harder if you're stupid." [laughs] You know? You know? And, and there's a lot of truth to that. 26:47 And so, like, you're going to learn, you know, our way of doing it, so to speak, and you're gonna, but you have to be safe about it. 26:54 But the problem with that thing, I see with shoot houses just in general, is that the overriding thing is safety. It, it get- Yeah... 27:00 it, it gets so far over there, where they've taken the, the organic and the, the realism part of it out. The, the rooms are so big, the hallways are big. Uh, they're s- they're designed to be offset. 27:12 And I, and I understand that com- safety component of it, but you're like, "This is... These are nothing like any of the op- any of the houses I've ever been in." Yeah. And there's, like, no, there's... 27:20 You can't put furniture in there, you can't put this in there, 'cause they're so worried about a trip hazard. I'm like, "Every op we do is, is full of stuff in the room." Yeah, yeah. You know? And so 27:28 you need to be able to do it, but it does, it'll never replicate everything because of the safety component of it. The, the safety, I think, 27:35 you know, departments and agencies need to, to realize, like for SWAT teams, for specialized teams, the s- the number one safety mitigation factor is individual skill. Yeah. Right? Yeah, absolutely. 27:46 And if you want it to be safer, put more effort into de- developing individual skill. Yeah. No, yeah. Put more effort into selecting better guys. Yeah. Right? That's... 27:55 'Cause it's, uh, you don't need the best guy, you need a type of guy. Right. You know? Um, and then in terms of- Cliff Byron. What's up, man? What's up, Cliff? 28:03 Why is it, uh, you know, why can we do, you know, points of domination, you know, very fast, very aggressively in terms of execution? 28:11 It's because the individual skill level is extremely high, and guys are very competent, you know, on the shooting piece of it. Um- Yeah... 28:19 you know, and I think that's hard for a lot of individuals to, to actually accept as like, "Hey, we do this TTP because our skill level, like this is all we can do." Yeah, yeah. 28:32 Well, we have guys come in training that have been on their team eight, 10 years, they've never spent one day in the live fire shoot house. Yeah. Yeah. That's horrible. And they're... Yeah, and it's, it's... 28:39 Coming from my point, like I tell, I can't even imagine. You know, I'm so fortunate to have what I have. Yeah. And so it's, I think it's really hard for some guys to get that. No, for sure. 28:47 Kim, you definitely need to get with Cliff. He's a good dude. He w- You need to bring him in for your organization. We go way back. Y'all do? Okay. An hour and a half. Okay, good. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 28:57 Yep, y'all, you, you need to get him out for one of y'all's deals. I'm gonna go to Bernie and watch- Oh, good... him do a training. Yeah. So I'll already be down there. No, great guy. Yeah. He's a great guy. 29:05 So, uh, one of the thing, one of the conversations that has been a hot topic h- here, here recently, and, um, 29:12 is the whole dynamic, deliberate and stuff, and we were having a, a conversation about it over pizza, uh, before we did this, uh, and your definition of, of, of dynamic. 29:23 W- what is your definition when, when this word gets thrown around? Well- We, we talked about it, and I really liked- Yeah... what you had to say about it. Yeah. I think... You know, I think we gotta go back to the... 29:33 Deliberate and dynamic, right, has been like an infection in the law enforcement world, as, as well as with the military, right? Deliberate doesn't mean slow, and dynamic doesn't mean fast. Um, and I would argue 29:47 if you look up the definition of dynamic, everything that police officers do, every situation you're in is a dynamic situation. Yes. Yeah. Right? 29:55 And what they're really talking about is, you know, the speed of execution of, of what they're doing. But for the sake of argument, let's say dynamic CQB is fast CQB, right? 30:04 And no other, no other sport, no other especially combat sport where there is- Yeah... two opponents that are playing to win is being slow valued to win. It doesn't exist. 30:21 Doesn't exist in fighting sports, it doesn't exist in, in the law enforcement, in your, your guys' business. If you were, if we were to go out here into the parking lot and say, "Yep, I've just lost my shit, and 30:33 you guys are gonna arrest me," right? Two or three guys go out there. I would ask, like, "How are you gonna set up to arrest me?" Right? The en- you're gonna set up into an L shape. Yep. Like, why do you do that? 30:44 Because it is the most confusing way for you guys to approach me, right? Is to be an L shape. I can't focus on three guys from two different sides all at once, right? And then how are you going to take me down? 30:55 Is it going to be slow or is it going to be fast, right? Fast. And then if, if I'm fighting, do you want me to fight at full speed or fight in slow motion? I want you to fight very, very slow. [laughing] Yeah. 31:08 So if you look at this from an adversarial standpoint, somebody that wants to fight you in a structure, they want you to go slow. Yeah. Right? Where I look at that fight is, is now you're, you're trying to 31:23 leverage, you know, a time component, right? You're trying to steal time away from the adversary, present an unwinnable fight to, to bad guys that wanna hurt you for the sake of your own safety, right? 31:35 So now it talks about, you know, the aggressive execution of it and real dynamic CQB doesn't have a whole lot to do with how fast you move across the ground. 31:45 It's how fast you're able to go from one task to the next task with no delay. The efficiency of it. Yeah. The efficiency of it. Yeah. Right? 31:52 I mean, how many times do we see when you're doing CQB training that guys are walking to a corner with nothing in it and not- Yes... moving until they get there. They paint the wall. 31:59 And then they collapse their sector, right? 32:01 So there, there, there's in, in an ingrained lack of understanding in what they're actually trying to accomplish in the room and the sequence of order of tasks and how quickly can they go from one task to the next to the next. 32:14 Yeah. Right? And, and to me, that is what real dynamic CQB is. Now, when we focus on the hard skills element, right? 32:22 When guys get better at shooting, they get better at moving, they get better at processing what's happening with their sights, with the tools that they have and reading situations. 32:31 That's a byproduct of being inoculated to those situations over and over. You know, the first warrant service you go on is gonna be completely different than the 1,000th that you go on. Yeah. Right? 32:41 In terms of how comfortable you are. So there's a natural progression of development with that. 32:46 But in terms of training, you know, the, the training pace needs to be significantly faster than what the execution pace is, right? I can always slow down. 32:56 If I am, if, if part of my job is to run 100 meters in 11 seconds, why would I ever fucking try to practice it for 15? Yeah. The application piece is I have to do this in 11. 33:08 I've been in situations where it has to be, it has to be 11 seconds. So now why, w- what do I gain by doing it in 15? You know? 33:16 So you start to apply this understanding of training of, of balancing, you know, a speed component which in anything that you do in terms of fighting or whatever, there is a speed component, whether it's in your favor or not in your favor, right? 33:30 Um, and everybody likes to talk about the difference between, uh, you know, a, a dope warrant versus an active shooter and I agree. 33:39 They, you know, if conditions change and the adversaries change, then the execution, it makes sense that that changes. But the reality is the worst or most, 33:51 the hardest or most dangerous situation that you have to go in, I don't think it would be hostage rescue, I think it would be active shooter, right? But in terms of speed, the execution is the same. 34:00 So if you know that you're, you guys are the ones that are called for active shooter, right? 34:06 And it's going to potentially, you know, more, more time than not be inside a structure, why would you ever train to do that slowly? Yeah. 34:13 You're never gonna show up then on the day and then all of the sudden have this reservoir of skill that you can call on, right? For most guys, I think what I've... 34:22 I've talked to plenty of cops that have been in their first shooting and that is the first time they have ever run that gun that aggressively was in that environment. 34:29 So why don't we create an environment where running the gun that hard is just a normal part of training? Yeah. Right? 34:36 Why don't we create an environment where the way that we are, we are executing whatever technique we use at CQB, the, the, the aggression of the execution is there. Yeah. Right? That it would be in that dynamic world. 34:49 Well, I think- Yeah... people focus on when you're running a warrant they go, "Why are you chasing dope? Why are you trying to rescue the dope?" The dope I could care less. 34:55 That's not, yeah, that's- It's a byproduct of what we do when we secure everything. Yeah. We're doing it because we have the data and everything to show why it's safer for us and for them, for the, you know- Yeah... 35:04 we shoot a lot of those people on dynamic warrant service and I have the data to prove it, than we ever do on surrounding call-outs. And like we, it is without question it is safer for us, safer for them. 35:16 It's, it's just, it's just a better way of doing business. But people that don't agree with that they go, "You're just running to your death. You're running- Yeah... to save dope." 35:22 I'm like, "That's weak to say that because I assure you that is not even anywhere in our plans- I hear-... of why we're doing it." I hear it nonstop, the right- Yeah... running to your death, right? Yeah. 35:31 I've been doing this as a profession since I was 18 years old. I'm 50 years old now. I'm still not dead. [laughing] So try another argument, bros. Like give me something else. Yeah. Right? 35:46 It's, and, and also I would say if your idea is, is like I'm not trying, why would I rescue dope? Then don't go. Yeah. Right? Then don't go in there, right? It's not rescuing dope. 35:57 No, it's- If you can't equate that fighting at full speed is going to be safer for you, right? 36:03 'Cause really lethality turns into dominance, dominance turns into safety when we talk about, you know, fighting in close proximity. Going slow doesn't, right? Going slow works because you're not opposed. 36:15 Go in there with just flashlights then. You'll have the same outcome. If the guy doesn't wanna fight with guns, does it really matter how you go in? No. I would say no. Um, and I, I agree with that. 36:25 The problem is I'm not talking about what you experience, you know, 90% of the time. 36:31 I'm talking about the one time when it does happen if you don't have that skill, you're gonna pay in a way that you might not wanna pay. Yeah. 36:40 I, I think too the, the, the whole argument when, when guys say, "Well, we're, we don't rescue dope. Our life's not all that." Like- 36:47 But I guarantee you, those are the same guys that are going out and making traffic stops. That's the same administration that's gonna say that, but allow their guys to make traffic stops. 36:55 To allow a guy to ride around on a motorcycle and make traffic stops and never check out on the radio, what's more dangerous? Statistically speaking, the, the n- traffic stop is way more dangerous. 37:08 And I'm like, so if rescuing dope is so dangerous, why is writing a ticket not dangerous? Well, family violence calls and traffic stops equate for the most police-involved shootings. Yeah. 37:19 So if you wanna say, what we're gonna do the safest thing, you wouldn't do either one of those. No. So- You'd be like the fire department- Yeah... and stage and wait for, okay- Yeah... he's left now. 37:27 Okay, now we'll come in. 37:28 Well, what gets me is that they say, "We, we, we don't do this because of this," or I've had them tell me, "We're not confident or competent enough to do a warrant dynamically because we got a lot of guys that never done it before." 37:40 Okay. Fine. I, I, I believe what you're saying. That's a fact. But, but, but what if... But you're SWAT, right? Yes. What if you get called out tonight on HR? 37:47 So on a pre-planned op that you're have all the advantages, you say you don't, you can't do it. 37:53 But then in the middle of the night, when you don't have all the advantages, and it's already gone bad, that's why you're getting called out- Yeah... 37:58 you're gonna sit there, we can pull it together now and be dynamic and go do an HR. Like- No, you can't... you cannot. You cannot. 38:04 And so, but they're telling theirselves that because either their command is saying you can't do it, or let's just be honest, some of them just can't do it, and they don't wanna admit that, and they're saying, "Well, we don't wanna do this." 38:13 I'm like, "Well, I'm telling you, ha- having d- done my share of them, it's the same speed. It's just how you can process the room at speed, clearing on the move. 38:21 And if you can't do it on a warrant, I would suggest that you're not gonna be able to do it on an HR either." Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. 38:27 No, and I would say, you know, it comes up a lot, too, where dynamic versus deliberate or the speed of execution, um, you know, uh, well, it's processing, processing, processing, right? And I don't, 38:39 I don't believe you... There is no way to train processing, right? You're, like, my phone has X amount of gigs of RAM, right? Whatever it is. I don't know, 16 gigs of RAM. I can never make it have 24, no matter what. 38:56 The only thing that I can do is I can shut down all these apps and programs running, so what it'll appear is that the processor is running faster and more efficiently. Yeah. Right? 39:07 You do that, where like, hey, we're, we're... Our team is not competent to go faster. We, we're not comfortable there. Cool. Let's go back to the range. 39:15 What do we have to do in terms of hard skills that will feed into our TTPs? Mm. 'Cause people don't understand. I, you know, years ago, I stopped calling them, you know, fundamentals. They're foundational skills. 39:26 It's the foundation that everything is built on, you know, when it comes to fighting. And if, if the foundation is three inches thin and made out of sand, the house you build on it is gonna be unstable. 39:39 If the foundation goes 300 feet down into the ground and is reinforced with steel and concrete, you can build a much bigger house on it. Yeah. 39:45 So why would you not spend the effort to develop those skills before you start doing anything within, in terms of tactics? 39:55 Um, but I think guys wanna go the tactic route or the scenario route, uh, because it's more interesting than the isolated work that's required to actually develop skill as an individual. Yeah. All right. 40:10 I'll look at, uh, I'm looking at one of the, uh, questions that was in the, uh, comments. So it says- Yes... "I'm sure there's going to be, uh..." I don't have my readers on, so it makes it harder. 40:19 [laughs] "I'm sure there's going to be top, I guess, cop talk about shooting. So I'll ask a question if, uh, in a different nature. 40:27 What's the most important characteristic of a man, and what makes someone a good teammate that you would want, uh, to work with?" You go. You want me to go? Oh. Yeah. Um- You have that. This is your show, man. 40:40 The, uh [laughs] Not my show. [laughs] Dude, the most... I'll tell you, you know, for me personally, uh, you know, the, the biggest characteristic that I assess in anybody is loyalty. Mm-hmm. Um, 40:53 not necessarily loyalty to me, but what are you loyal to? Mm. Right? That is... Because that's something you can't, you can't program, you can't train, you can't fake it, right? 41:03 Um, you know, so loyalty would be the first thing that I would, I would assess for. Um, you know, and then willingness. How willing are you to actually do whatever we're about to do? Yeah. Right? 41:15 And, and, and guys will demonstrate that different ways. And then, um, you know, a- so as an individual, like, a good teammate, you know, I, I don't need to have a teammate that is, 41:26 is the fittest dude on the planet, right? We can work on that. We can always build on that. He doesn't need to be the best shooter in the, in the squadron or in the tr- we can always... 41:36 That's something that is part of our job we're gonna continuously build on, right? 41:39 However you shoot today on day one is probably not how you're gonna shoot 10 years from now, you know, if you're putting in consistent work. 41:47 But how loyal you are on day, day one and, and kind of those ingrained personality traits that you, you had from a young man up to that point of, of your job of whenever I met you. Like, 42:00 like, I hate to say, but, like, if you're a fucking unloyal piece of shit, you're not gonna be able to hide that- It's hard-... for very long. It's hard-coded- Yeah... and it's not coming out of there. 42:08 That's, that is the way that you're, you are hardwired, and that's how you're gonna behave. It's how you're gonna treat situations. Um, you know, and I would say, like, for me, 42:19 I think that I'm probably loyal to a fault with giving, you know, benefits of the doubts to people and, and things like that. I wanna see the, the good in everything, right? 42:30 Even when it's, like, staring me dead in the eyes. But I'll tell you, once I realize, nope, it's not worth it, dudes are fucking dead to me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 42:37 Like, I have no problem turning my back on someone that I've known for 20 years if, if traits that are not consistent with how I wanna live my life and how I'm gonna progress, you know, in terms of business, in terms of personal relationships. 42:51 You know, for me, I've- Married, I have seven kids, right? If, it shouldn't be a mistake to anybody, like, where my grounding exists, you know, um, in the reality of my family and that. 43:04 So if, if when I run across people that don't share kinda those same values or things like that, it's not that it's, it's a, it's a nega- it's a big turn-off, but it's like, hey, you know, it's maybe you're not exposed to it or whatever, but now 43:18 let me see how you, I would assess, like, your loyalty in other aspects of it. Like, how fair are you, like, in business? How fair are you, you know, with personal relationships, right? Yeah. 43:27 Because in th- in this environment, like, this conference is a prime thing, it is, it's personal relationships that are combined with business relationships. Yeah. Right? And they are intertwined, right? 43:38 And sometimes on the business side, you, you can do things on the business side that are gonna be a benefit for business, and then, but they might degrade personal rela- and for me, it's, I'm not willing to do that- Yeah... 43:50 a lot of times. Well, the team is successful when individuals work together in their skills for the team, right? 43:57 You can, you, you know, we all have people that are, you know, good athletes or whatever, and they're not working in the same mission that you are. What good does it do? Yeah. Yeah. 44:07 No, you can have a whole team of superstars, man, that are all out for themselves, right, worried about that next contract. Yeah. Right? And they never go to the Super Bowl. They never make it to the playoffs. Mm-hmm. 44:17 Right? But individually, guys have amazing numbers. Yeah. So. No, you're right. All right, there's another one that came out. 44:24 Uh, basically, uh, he went to a class in twenty twenty-five, and you were talking about shooting triples. So what's... Are you still doing that? Is that something in your training regimen? 44:34 If so, what have you advanced with that, and how's that different from shooting doubles? 44:39 Uh, so for guys that don't know, like, doubles the predictive progression, um, in the way that I, I look at it, you know, predictive shooting as the primary training tool to develop foundational skills, like, it's been instrumental for me. 44:54 Um, I think the next progression, you know, for guys is, is, is working into, like, a predictive triple, right? And then four rounds. Mm. 45:03 You know, at that predictive pace, paying attention to, you know, all of the things that we, we emphasize, grip, visual focus, visual control, visual discipline, right, and learning from that. 45:14 And I think for a lot of guys, they're very good at the doubles progression, and they start to look at doubles not as a training tool, but as, like, a scoreable exercise that they're trying to shoot, where they're, A, all alphas, all alphas. 45:26 And what I noticed with guys, like, as soon as you're very good at doubles at ten, twelve, fifteen, maybe even out to twenty yards, right, and you're holding, you know, above ninety percent alphas, you're understanding the cues, then the next obvious progression would be add a third round to it. 45:43 Mm. Right? And see how does that change foundational elements, right? How does that affect you visually? How does it affect mechanically in terms of how you're gripping the pistol? 45:53 And then pretty soon, you know, as you're, you're at those training distances that are, you know, beyond ten yards, twelve, fifteen, seventeen, twenty yards, and you move up to actual engagement distances, now you have, like, 46:08 by accident, started to mimic an actual engagement pace, right? And when you tie that together with reactive shooting, which is the engagement strategy, right, understanding the confir- confirmation levels, 46:22 you are, you're starting to see things much, much faster than you could have before. So now what your perception of confirmation to or color confirmation has completely changed. Mm-hmm. Right? 46:33 And to me, that's a benefit. Yeah. It's a positive. So to kinda break it down for an officer that says, "Hey, I hear the training in a, uh, very fast pace and shooting 46:48 predictive, uh, as opposed to reactive of the way I should shoot in a 46:54 real engagement," is that kinda the same philosophy when you were, if you're shooting in a match, hey, I'm not going as fast as I normally train because I'm having to make sure I'm shooting an A or a, a somewhat Charlie and, and just not just going as fast as I can. 47:10 Is that, does it... Well, I guess my question is, does it correlate the same as shooting a match pace as should be shooting a OIS pace, pace? Yeah. So yes. Yes. 47:24 I believe it, I believe that's true from, from this aspect- Yeah... where at a match, I'm always gonna shoot my vision. Yeah. Right? 47:31 Now, I'm gonna bend what's, what, what is acceptable based off target distance, difficulty, where I'm at in the match, and what I'm willing to risk to miss. Yeah. Right? But I'm always programmed to shoot my vision. 47:43 The same thing holds true in an engagement. You know, when you ask a lot of officers, like, "What tells you when it's time to shoot?" And the resounding answer across the board is, "Well, I s- I saw a gun." Mm-hmm. 47:57 And I'm like, "No, that just told you the game has started." Mm-hmm. That now you're playing this game. What should tell you when it's time to shoot is when you see what you determine is acceptable, right? 48:08 What does acceptable look at for that target distance, that difficulty, and most importantly, how much are you willing to risk to not get a, get the hit that you need? Mm. Right? 48:19 Where I think more, more often than not, what you see in, like, body cam footages of shootings is, is officers that are shooting the situation and not shooting their vision. Yeah. Right? 48:31 I'm shooting into the situation because it's, it's happened, it's started, and now I'm just shooting rounds, right? 48:38 And then you see reloads having to happen when I've seen it plenty of times, you know, five, six officers shooting into a vehicle, right? 48:46 And then at the end of it, they're barking commands, and hands come out, and the guy gets out of the vehicle. My initial question is, what were you aiming at? Yeah. 48:54 Were you shooting the vehicle, the situation, or were you shooting the threat in the vehicle? Right? 48:59 And take that back to the training side, it goes into, like, if you underst- understand, you know, predictive shooting as a tool, and then reactive shooting as the engagement- Engagement... right, it's gonna get you... 49:13 You, you'll realize, like, if there's nothing for you to shoot at, there's... Don't pull the trigger. Yeah. 49:18 But that happens more times than not, where guys are just, no, they're shooting into the scenario, into the situation, and they're not shooting to get effects. That, no, for, for sure. 49:28 Uh, here's a, here's a good question. I, I thought that was pretty inter- Yes, ma'am. Kim, what you got, girl? He's got a question. All right, got a question. 49:34 Hey, I was just curious on, uh, which optic plates you like to run? [laughs] This is a loaded question. [laughs] That's Jordan from Arise Manufacturing. But all my guns are direct milled. 49:47 [laughs] So my preferred optic plate is no optic plate. [laughs] But on my work MOS guns, I do have a Low Rider. [laughs] There's a plug for you. Yeah. I got- And I love it. 50:00 I, I do like, I do like the Low Rider, you know, because for my, for my work pistol versus, like, my own guns, it pushes the optic as low as it possibly can and still have good connection. Yeah. 50:15 With the tight tolerances. Yeah. Yeah, with tight toler- great. Still have, have not had one fail yet, so, uh, you know, knock on wood. 50:23 But, uh, no, been a positive, man, and Jordan's been great with, like, you know, supporting. I know all the dudes I work with, they love him, so it's been good. Yeah. Thank you. I actually run one on my PDP. 50:33 I got a Low Ride. Oh, awesome. Yeah, I love it. Really appreciate the support, man. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. I didn't even s- put it together until he said. I was like, "Oh, shit." [laughs] Did you just say you have a PDP? 50:41 Yeah. [laughs] Did Brandon just come out of the closet? [laughs] I'm not getting involved in that conversation. Well, I have a Glock, too. You know me. I shot a Glock today, man. I, I try to stay Switzerland, no errors. 50:50 So I'm, uh... [laughs] Well, tomorrow you're gonna see I'm gonna run my Canik, so you can make fun of me tomorrow. [laughs] Hey, that's like a Turkish PDB. [laughs] Exactly. Thank you, guys. 51:01 Kim, you got a question, girl? You got a question for us? I was just gonna say you're already out of the closet. [laughs] I have not m- missed that. That's a true statement. [laughs] That's a true statement. 51:10 Please, girl, come on. Sorry. Uh, okay, this was a good one, I thought. What did the real world CQB teach you that training didn't? 51:18 The actual application of it, um, showed that, like, each, each event, each shooting, each target is unique in itself. Mm-hmm. Right? 51:28 They all have different elements, um, that need different things in terms of, of execution speed, execution pace, you know, how the conditions change, what we're willing to risk, you know, to, to have success, or what we're w- willing to risk to potentially not have success, you know? 51:47 So they're, they're all a little bit different. 51:50 But what it taught me, though, that it was like regardless of how each individual situation or each individual target varied, the common underpinning theme that when the engagement started, when it, we hit that threshold where, like, we are now in a fight- Mm-hmm... 52:05 um, the speed that that fight needed to unfold was identical across the board. Yeah. Right? Um, at the end of the day, you know, go back to, like, the competitive world versus the tactical world. 52:18 We're, we're both trying to do the same thing. We're trying to make the bullets go exactly where we want them to go as fast as possible. Yeah. 52:26 The level, the assumption of risk in, in a, in a real application environment is obviously much higher than shooting paper, right? 52:35 I can shoot Delta, shoot Alpha Delta on the, on the range, you know, in a match all day long, and I'm penalized with points, and I walk away, and the only thing that's hurt is, you know, kinda my pride and, and my willingness to wanna do good. 52:49 You know, but something like that, if, uh, you know, shooting a couple Deltas, you know, on a r- on an actual target, uh, that might give that guy a window or a scene that he can exploit where he's now able to shoot, 53:05 right? Yeah. Um, now caveat that with saying there's a lot of situations I've seen where the solution to the problem might have been Delta, Alpha, Alpha, and that's what solved it, right? 53:16 A very fast Delta to, to get a- get effects, right? If you think of hit factor in terms of energy to the target, right? So I give an energy value of one, and I follow it up with two energy values of five. Hmm. Right? 53:29 And that's, and I c- if I can do that at a faster than real-life pace, that may solve the problem better than dropping three energy levels of five in four times the amount of time. Hmm. Right? 53:41 Or, you know, whatever, four seconds longer than it needs to be. So they're all unique, but, but the underpinning theme is that what I learned is, is each one had a speed component to it that could not be ignored. No. 53:54 Take that back to your training, right? And that's where it kinda, you know, coin the phrase, Zach Harrison's sitting out there right now. He, he's... We're, we're training at a faster than real-life pace. Mm-hmm. Right? 54:05 We're doing that because then when we're in the real-life pace, we've artificially introduced accountability and control. 54:14 'Cause I'm so used to running like rats on acid at that ragged edge, like hitting everything so hard and aggressively, that when it goes to, like, what the real pace is, my vision is opened up. 54:26 I see everything very, very clearly, and I'm able to, you know, deliver and the, the point of performance of work that I need to with tons of accountability and tons of control. Mm-hmm. So how long, how long 54:40 for you, coming from where you, where you were, where you were when you were the, quote, the new guy, did it take you to, "Hey, man, I made my first real op entry." 54:51 How long did it take you to really go, "Okay, my efficiency now is up to par with the other guys"? To, to that learning curve to, to kinda catch up with the other dudes. 54:59 I don't, I don't think you ever get to the point where, uh, where you're like, you feel like you're caught up. Mm-hmm. Right? I think, I think from day one, you know, everybody is, is safe enough to run. Mm. Right? 55:13 And that's the intent, is that you can run with a team. You are going to have to run with a team. Yeah. Like, you made it. That's it, you know? And then over time, f- I would say for myself, it's, um, 55:26 I never felt like, "Yep, um, it's now all clicking." There was always something to work on. Yeah, yeah. Right? There was always, you know... I could always be a little bit faster. 55:37 I could always be a little bit more accurate. Mm. Could always be more aggressive. I could fight harder. I could let, let the situation, you know, doesn't need to unfold as much as it did. 55:47 I recognize I was there much sooner. Why did I not react to that immediately? Yeah. Right? Why did I, why did I not react to nothing immediately? Mm. 55:54 You know, I, I think for me, that's, that is the most undervalued skill in CQB, is the ability to react to nothing. Yeah. Right? People do not believe that what they're seeing, or they're looking. 56:05 They're looking at things, but they're not seeing things. Um, so I would say I never got to that point where it's like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm good. It's comfortable," right? 56:13 And I, and I don't think a lot of guys do at that place, because that's not the, that's not the culture of the place. The culture is like consistent, you know, progression. Mm. The, 56:25 the, the, the culture statement is excellence in everything we do. Like, that's a huge or- that's a huge lift. Yeah. Right? 56:33 That shows, like, every single day you're, you're working to be better than you were the day before. And then every single day, you're training to fight yourself, you know, or somebody that has similar skill. 56:45 So- Well, it's a journey, not a destination. Yeah. It is. It's, it's the journey with no discernible endpoint. Yep. Yeah. Right? 56:51 And if you don't enjoy the journey, like guys that didn't, they, you know, they, they came and went or they found something else. Yeah. Guys that really did, it, you know, it becomes... 57:02 It, you become a little bit psychotic about it- Yeah... in terms of, like, the performance side- Yeah... and, and what we need to get out of it. Yeah. Um, which I, for me, I thought that was a good thing. Yeah. You know? 57:12 I thought it was never an issue going fast, going hard. It was, I knew I could always back it down and slow down, 'cause we were all professional. We were professional at training. We were professional at application. 57:24 You know, we understood that sometimes y- sometimes it's the old number six. You gotta smash it, and other times it's like, "Hey, there's nothing driving us into it. Let's use these tools that we have to, to get to..." 57:37 But we had a, a, a massive toolbox- Yeah... you know, compared to LE. Yeah. So. Yeah. Now, uh, that's a, that, that's, that's good, 'cause it, it always is evolving. Like, it, it... I'm the same way. 57:48 I'm like, man, I, I, I just wanna be always moving forward and, and looking at, you know, how critical I am of myself, and that, and that, that does suck, is you're driving home. 58:00 You're like, "Fuck, I should've done this. I should've done this," and it haunts you for, you know, a day on things, so. But I think that's a good thing. The chasing of mastery that you know you can never- Yeah... 58:09 actually master. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it, it's just like that match we shot today. Like, you would run run stage, and then the next one you're like, "How, how did I just bomb that thing?" Y- a- and it just... 58:21 And then the next one you're like, "Okay, I'm a little bit better on this." And it's, it's every, every time you perform, there, there's always a new outcome. 58:28 I, I think, you know, looking at the NFL, I mean, these guys are true professionals. All they do is practice, and then they have this game plan, and they execute it. 58:36 And all it takes is one guy to not step where he's been stepping all week, and the play is just blown up. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And these guys just practice this all the time, and it's, they know what they're doing. 58:47 There's no like, "We gotta react to this." So, so one of the things is interesting, you know, about NFL players, right? Do you know how long an NFL team practices for? It's not as long as you would think. 90 minutes. 58:58 Yeah. The union, they can only practice for 90 minutes. Yeah. And I, I've had the opportunity to work with some teams, and like, when it hits 90, they can be in the middle of a play, they walk off the field, right? 59:12 So you think about, like, how, how developed are the, the individual skills for every dude in that position, how d- the physical side- Yeah... 59:21 the, the cognitive side, you know, the, the technical side of, of with the ball running and, and all that stuff. How much is that developed so that at that level, to win, you know? 59:34 Um, and I think a lot of people don't really understand when you, when you see NFL players, you know, in real life, like practicing two feet away from them, and dudes are like, "I could play in the NFL." 59:44 Like, absolutely not, you couldn't. [laughs] Like, that's a Ferrari. You're a fucking moped. [laughs] There's no way you can do that. Um- Uh... 59:53 so y- you take away from that, like, the, the foundation that those guys have, it's developed. And a lot of it is natural ability, and then it's understanding of the game. 1:00:01 It's understanding of, like, how they're training, you know, over time. Um, you know, you try to apply that to, like, like the, the, um, you know, the shooting world. It's the same way. 1:00:14 Like, in a match, you're, "Dude, how did I do that? How did I do that?" It's like, you're gonna fuck up, right? Did, I did not shoot, shot the first two stages absolutely horrible, you know? 1:00:23 But it is, it w- that was how I did at that time on that day. Yeah. Right? And it's, it's information that you collect, and it, it should be feeding back into your training. Yeah. Right? 1:00:33 Because, you know, outside of a few different dudes, you know, in the world, like, no one's winning every time. Yeah. Right? And I think that holds true in life. Yeah. 1:00:43 It's, it's understanding and, and not having the ego from a training perspective or the ego from a personality perspective. Like, can I learn from my failures? 1:00:52 Can I be honest about when I failed, when it broke down, and how am I gonna feed that back in? Yeah. And can I come up with a plan to get better based off what I saw from that data set? Yeah. No, for sure. 1:01:04 I guess the question, look, we have- We got a question... the president and the vice president right here, man. Serious. This is... Look at, look- Did your detail do an advance scout on this? And it's secure enough. 1:01:14 Yeah, I think I'm, I think, I think I'm pretty safe. Okay, good, good, good. All right, so here, here's my question. Not every, not a lot of guys, as you know, some of these guys pay their own way to training. 1:01:23 They gotta pay for their own ammo. So, uh, obviously, they wanna focus on the hard skills. 1:01:28 So, if they had 100 rounds of ammo that they had to buy themselves, and they went to the range to train, what would you suggest would be the best thing for them to train with that 100 rounds? Oh, man. 1:01:38 I just got asked this, um- That was the president, Dan Colasanto. Yep. So, so if I, if I had 100 rounds, what I would do is I, I would dedicate, um, 1:01:49 I would dedicate 40, 40% of the rounds to doubles, to predictive shooting, right? But with that, with anything that I'm doing, I would do it dry four or five times, and then I would do it live. 1:02:00 So for every, every block of doubles, which is eight rounds, right, I would run through that block five to 10 times, right? With the, pulling the trigger each time, assessing the grip. 1:02:12 So it'd be a dry and live combination. So 40, 40% of the rounds would be to doubles. Um, 30% of the rounds would be into, um, reactive shooting. 1:02:24 You know, more than two rounds, probably less than, than four or five rounds, um, on multiple targets, right? 1:02:31 So I would, I would be training transitions, but primarily shooting my vision, right, at closer distances, going back to farther distances, right? 1:02:40 And, and whatever the target array would look at, I would commit, you know, 30% of the rounds to that. 20% of the rounds would be movement, right? 1:02:48 I would be moving, uh, in some capacity, lateral movement, forward lateral, and then shooting into and out of position and shooting on the move, right? 1:02:58 I would dedicate the 20% of the rounds to that, and the last 10% of the rounds would be whatever I was working on in dry fire, I would check that in live. 1:03:10 So if it was a gun handling element, I would do that, or if it was just something that I wanted to explore, I would dedicate 10, 10% of the rounds to that. That's awesome. That's, that's... 1:03:21 I think that's important 'cause a lot of guys don't have a lot of rounds. I mean, some of- Yeah... some of us are fortunate, but that's, that's good. That's, I was just wondering that. 1:03:29 No, I, no, I think for a lot of guys to understand, you know, there's, there's very good examples. 1:03:34 You know, uh, yeah, Juan de Kim is one of them, where he, he was able to achieve so much off of just shooting 2,000 rounds, and it's not shooting 2,000 rounds to build up to a level. It's 2,000 rounds total. 1:03:48 But the way that he conceptualized dry fire with studying video of his shooters, like within 2,000, of firing about 2,000 rounds, which I think that is the count, he was, like, 1:04:01 finishing in the top one or two of area level ma- national level matches, right? It's, it, it's not really the volume that you're shooting. 1:04:10 Yes, time behind the gun does help, but it's, it's the training mentality and training methodology that if guys can embrace that, like, 'cause practical shooters primarily fund their own training, right? 1:04:22 They, they're not sitting on, like, mountains and mountains of ammunition. They don't have unlimited ammo, you know, like some people do. 1:04:28 So, so what they're doing is they're getting really good at when they're shooting, when they're shooting rounds, they're making every one count. Making it count, yeah. Right? And you think of it like a 10 to one rep. 1:04:37 If for everything that I'm gonna do on the range live, I'm gonna try to do that at least 10 times dry, right? 1:04:43 And then apply the same cues in dry and live and be very, very objectively honest and hard of my- myself in dry fire that I'm accomplishing the things that I want to, so when I go to live, I'm not just shooting, I'm actually training. 1:04:58 I, I think the, I think the dry fire piece is the missing piece. I think a lot of guys, well, they don't do it at all, or if they do do it, it's not, they're not concentrating, like you said. 1:05:07 They're not focused, and then they, they get out to live and, and they're not, they're not doing that. 1:05:11 So the, I think the dry fire piece is missing a, a lot of times, and then they go out there and like you're saying, instead of quality reps, it's quan... Like, "Oh, I'm just gonna shoot a bunch- Yeah... 1:05:20 and not, and not focus on the dry." But I think the, I think the dry is, is very important, and it's something that a lot of people, they don't do. And I've, I've 1:05:29 read before things that you've said is, "Hey, 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there." Like, everybody thinks it has to be, like, an hour, but it, it doesn't. Yeah. 1:05:36 I think even 10-minute sessions is, if you're, if you're doing it like you should be doing it, those 10-minute sessions are gonna be pretty, uh, demanding. Yeah. 1:05:43 I think for most people, if you're, if you're gripping the gun the way you do live, and you're, you're cognitively engaged the way you should be, paying attention to what you need to be, um, 10 minutes, 15 minutes is about max. 1:05:56 So for me, like, I'm, I'm a 10 to 15 minutes a session. If I wanna do more, I'm adding multiple sessions throughout the day. But, but the volume still accumulates, right? It does. 1:06:05 And you're still working it at the appropriate intensity for whatever those 15 min- 10 to 15-minute sessions. It's micro sessions or micro dosing your training. Yep. 1:06:14 Which works the same in a lot of different ways in terms of what your brain can handle, what your body can handle. Yeah. 1:06:19 What, what's actually going on before you start to fall into a rhythm where one of those things starts to fall off. The intensity, the focus might fall off. Yeah. Whatever else. 1:06:26 I think for most people, you know, just like working out- Yep, exactly like that... the, the intensity is not anywhere where it needs to be. You know? People can't artificially introduce that intensity, right? 1:06:38 For working out, it's like, if I wanna have a really good workout, it's, I use pre-workout, right? [chuckles] To kinda, like, chemically induce the intensity- Yeah, yeah... that I need, right? 1:06:48 So, but you can't do that with dry fire, so, like, how do you, you do it? For me, like, I use, I use rate of perceived exertion. Right. Right? 1:06:55 I, I understand where my 100% is, and then I start, and, you know, I may start at 80, but the bulk of the training, maybe I'm two minutes at 80%, and then the next eight to 10 minutes, I'm at 100%. 1:07:10 And what I'm trying to do is be absolutely consistent with absolute precision, with very high levels of accountability, cognitively, like, in terms of what I see The dot doing while I'm going 100% of what I can do at that time on that day. 1:07:26 So there's two metrics there, actually. So there's the, there's, there's... Intensity is used kinda two ways in what I just heard you talk about. One is the effort level, right? Yeah. 1:07:35 The f- the f- the focus, the intention that I'm putting into the training. Yeah. And then intensity is also measured in the speed, right, of what it is. 1:07:42 Maybe that's it or the a- and/or the accuracy that you're trying to obtain with that kind of focus. So there's kinda two parts to this. 1:07:49 Like, it's not just how fast you're going, it's what's actually happening, and that's in the dry and the live fire. Yeah. And f- for me, like early on, 1:07:58 I, I noticed a huge disconnect in what I could do in dry fire, I could not replicate even close to that in live fire. And what I realized I was doing was I was not paying attention to the visual side of what I was doing. 1:08:09 Mm-hmm. So as soon as now I started adding aiming and accountability- It, it fell apart... it, it, the, the performance fell apart. Yeah. 1:08:16 It's like, it's like speed training or whatever else or when you're l- l- like velocity-based training. It's about moving lighter weights faster, and as soon as the speed starts to slow down, well, we're done. 1:08:27 Like, the, I'm, I'm done for that part of the session- Yeah... and I move on to the next thing that takes less speed, whatever that is. So- Yeah... 1:08:33 maybe the, maybe we're moving into something different, but that's the advantage of microdosing 'cause you can make sure you're focused for that amount of time, for that 10 or 15 minutes. 1:08:42 Step away, evaluate what you did, refresh the brain, refresh whatever, especially if it's live fire. And, and get back to it for your next session. Every time you say microdosing- Yeah... 1:08:50 I think about- I know what you're thinking... a little challenge that was, like, back in my recon days, it was, um, shot of beer every minute- [laughs]... for as long as you can. You're like, "Dude, that's easy." 1:09:02 No, it's not. No, it isn't. [laughs] After about 45 minutes, you're, you're naked and- Dancing on the bar... by 60 minutes, you're begging for help. [laughs] And you're in the j- you're in jail. Yeah. 1:09:12 If it's only a little glass of beer, that's... Microdosing is wildly effective. Yeah. [laughs] Is there a time and place for, quote, "slow CQB" where you're moving through the room slowly, not non-HRT? Um, 1:09:30 yeah, the, yes, there are conditions. When the conditions are present where you don't have to leverage speed, right? You think of the, the, the triangle of the principles of CQB, right? 1:09:42 Surprise, speed, violence of action, right? They're in that order for a reason. If we never give up surprise, then we, there is no reason for us to leverage speed. Mm-hmm. Right? 1:09:55 And, but conditions have to be present for that. Typically, you know, in the military world, it's complete darkness, right, with walls that can stop bullets. 1:10:04 That's what gives me the, you know, that element of surprise gives me the ability to now be a little bit slower in terms of, of assessing a threshold or something like that. 1:10:18 But I would say even, even on, like, what we would call combat clearance in the military, the threshold assessment is one piece. It's still not a slow thing, right? 1:10:30 I'm, I'm assuming a lot of risk because it's dark, because the walls stop bullet, because I have a lot of standoff from the door, right? 1:10:39 That I'm able to now throw infrared light in there, look through it on nods, and assess what I can see. But when I commit to the room, the movement into the room is the exact same if it was daytime and in HR. Mm-hmm. 1:10:53 I'm just not making any noise when I'm doing it. But I'm still aggressively moving through that fatal funnel, and I'm collapsing, I'm doing the priorities of work, the order of battle in the room. 1:11:03 You know, primary, secondary, secondary, sector, sector and depth. Gun down, head up, leave the room, right? I'm going through those tasks so quickly, you know, um, 1:11:14 and just understanding that the conditions are present to where I, it gives me a little bit more time to assess the room from outside the room. There's nothing that's, that's sucking me in there really quick. 1:11:25 But a lotta, a lot of guys in LE don't understand, like, where the, the nexus of that TTP came from- Yeah. Yeah... and what was the threat that we were mitigating, right? 1:11:35 It was, it was guys that were blowing themselves up in the room. You know? So if that threat doesn't exist, like, why, why would you say, like, most LE guys are now favoring, 1:11:48 uh, a, a very extensive threshold assessment and, like, a limited penetration CQB? And it goes back to, like, it has nothing to do with the adversary. You are more concerned about officer safety than you are about- 1:12:01 Winning... sol- solving the problem and winning. Yeah. So if that's the case, like, you can't really combat that. 1:12:06 Until you can get, until you can get guys to understand, like, you're wanting something to be safe that's inherently dangerous. We can't make it safe. 1:12:14 And your value, with your value of safety, what I see is your willingness is in the fucking basement, right? You have no willingness to fight, right? 1:12:23 So in that thing, it's like, until you can get guys to flip that on its head, right, the willingness has to be there, right? And, and erase all of these things that guys say, "I'm not trying to rescue dope. 1:12:33 I'm not trying to run to my death." I've never once in my life tried to run to my death. I also would say, on target, I don't do, I don't take risks on target. 1:12:45 Doing dangerous shit and taking risks are two completely different things. Yeah. Elaborate. 1:12:50 I do dangerous shit, but I mitigate that risk by been doing it for a long time, and I put a maximum amount of effort into developing individual skill. Okay. Right? 1:13:01 Like, I don't think that there is somebody that I'm going to meet in a room, in a structure, that can do the things that I can do with my rifle at that distance. Right? I believe that. I think you have to believe that. 1:13:15 Right? And you have to train yourself to a level where you know that, hey, in application, this is the point of performance of work, and this is what I can deliver. Right? 1:13:24 So in terms of mentality, like, there's a completely different mentality between guys that wanna hit stuff dynamic and guys that are concerned about safety and going home. Mm-hmm. 1:13:33 Um, and I think it, it, it, it begs a bunch of different questions that have to be asked and discussed, you know, that a lot of guys don't want to have the discussion because they don't wanna ask the question 'cause, uh, with the, with the, the question's gonna come the answer. 1:13:48 I think it, this kinda goes back to what Matt was saying before in that there needs to be an admission that we are not ready for this. 1:13:53 Like, I'm not, I'm not good to go, so that goes back to the belief system that inherently they, they don't believe that they can handle that problem- Yeah... 1:14:00 at the level that it needs to be handled, therefore safety becomes the default. Yeah. Yeah. So how do, how do you- I, I don't know. I'm asking. That's a question. I have no idea. Yeah. I, I, I think it is. 1:14:10 Safety becomes the default, and then on top of safety, now I'm gonna throw 25 blankets of legal mumbo jumbo bullshit that doesn't really apply, but we're gonna say it applies. Right? 1:14:22 The, the whole thing with, like, the, you know, the, the conversations that have been happening lately with, uh, the, the knock and announce or no-knock, did you wait long enough, and, and I think what everyone that understands this, agrees with is 1:14:36 when the warrant is signed by a judge, you have met the legal threshold to go do business on how you're al- you're, you're allowed to in that warrant. Yeah. 1:14:45 Whether or not that induces a situation or prevents a situation is a byproduct of, of, uh, hindsight. You don't know, like, what's gonna happen. You know? 1:14:56 The, the one video that was just made from Dallas where, well, he didn't even know the police were there. 1:15:02 Well, if the guy that made that would've spent, you know, 10 minutes on the phone talking to the guys that were there and realized there were cameras that saw them in the main house, they already went to another house. 1:15:14 Right? So the video you saw was them going up there, and so that guy coming out to the door with a rifle was not coming out 'cause he was confused about if, if a SWAT team was at his house. He's been watching it- Yeah... 1:15:27 you know, for a little bit of a, you know, up to a minute on his, on his CCTV. He's coming out with a gun to fight. So the idea, like, having the conversation, like, did we create that situation? 1:15:41 And, and as a law enforcement guy 1:15:44 who was in a team leader position and not understanding how fucking dangerous that conversation is and what you're saying to have that publicly because you, you want clicks and likes and follows on a podcast, and not reaching out to the team that actually did it, right, that i- in my mind, it, that's an ethical issue that you have no business being a cop, right? 1:16:05 And I hope you never get on with the, with the department you're trying to get on with now. Yeah. Because you have no business doing it. Uh, well, too, like, there, there was, there was already 1:16:17 elements of the team in dif- other structures besides that structure 'cause there was multiple structures within that. So, so it's like you don't even know the whole circumstances. 1:16:26 Like, the gig was up a long time ago to know who was there. I mean, I can make speculations on anything. I mean, I could just pull shit outta my ass and, and say, "Well, this and that," but I don't know. 1:16:36 It's like, it's like critiquing a football game. Like, they say you gotta watch the 22. It's the 22. It's, it's all that. 1:16:42 I can watch it as, as an ex- a guy who's watching on the couch, but I'm not watching the game film like the coaches do and breaking down all 22 guys on that field, and that's the same thing we do with a debrief. 1:16:53 I can sit here and say ev- every day, "Hey, that was the quarterback's fault," but actually it wasn't the quarterback's fault. It was the receiver who didn't read the defense like the quarterback read. So 1:17:02 without being in there, that's where the irresponsibility, like you said, is fucking enraging. Uh, I saw all that stuff, too. Yeah. And again, I'm just an outside observer looking in. 1:17:13 One of the things that came up from, come, came up for me with just kinda what you were saying there about, like, the argument around surround and call out, knock and announce versus no-knock. 1:17:21 If the judge has signed the warrant and we're showing up to that, at any point it's going to become, it could become an entry. Right? 1:17:28 You're, you're gonna have to go in there, whether it's surround and call out and then it, uh, turns into a hostile- Yeah... situation, or whether it's knock and announce, at some point you have to go in. 1:17:36 The operation's not over till it's all secure. Right. So- So you're gonna have to go in at some point, going back to the funnels. You, you... W- if you don't believe that you're good enough to go through 1:17:48 whatever that process is and when that process happens, whatever the situation is presented- Yeah... and you're defaulting to the safety thing, then again, uh, all that other stuff kinda goes out the window. Yeah. 1:17:57 To me, the way I look at it is like, well, you still have to go in there. Yes, yes. You, you may still have to go in there. 1:18:02 So if every one of those situations ultimately talk, uh, uh, you know, turns into a dynamic entry, then everything that you've s- we've talked about up to this point has to be in play. Yeah. And the speed... 1:18:14 'Cause the surprise is over. Yeah. Right? So now it's- Then you gotta leverage something else... comes to speed and violence of action, and where do you lie in those things? 1:18:20 If you don't believe you have either of those two things, then I th- I, I could see where it could be easy to default to the safety component. 1:18:27 A- and I think, too, there's guys out there- I don't know if I'm right about that or not. I just, that's my- Well, there's guys out there that think that a, a no-knock is a tactic. No-knock is not a tactic. 1:18:38 That's a legal [laughs] that's a legal t- deal. Right. That they're, whoever wrote that warrant is getting totality of the circumstances to- Right... present to a judge to give that grant. 1:18:50 It's not a tactic, and there is guys out there that believe that is a tactic. It's not a tactic. So- Yeah. What I think- You know... dudes need to understand is [laughs] 1:18:59 like, like, this is, this is where, like, there's, there's very low levels of understanding of, of, of what's happening in this business, right? The tactic is CQB. Mm-hmm. Always has been, always will be. 1:19:12 The techniques are all of the ways that you can- Can do that... accomplish that tactic. Yeah. Right? So when people say, "These are my tactics," no, the tactic is fucking CQB, right? And now inside a structure, you- 1:19:24 Whether your points of domination, strong wall, limb pen, threshold assessment, check, those are all techniques that you can apply to reinforce that tactic. But the tactic is still CQB, right? 1:19:35 And then procedurally, those are all of the, the minutiae things that get introduced, right? Where most of them are inefficient ways to execute the technique, right? 1:19:46 And if guys would just understand that, you know, that would be a game changer. I've trained more PDs and SWAT teams where I'm like, "Can I see your SOP?" And the resounding answer is like, "We don't have one." Hmm. 1:20:03 And it's like, why not? Like, then how do you train new guys, right? Like, how do you... 1:20:08 A new guy should come to the team, and as soon as he gets there, you hand him a very easy-to-read document that's maybe three pages long and has some graphics in it, and it's like, this is the meat and potatoes- This is the structure and the standardization- Yeah... 1:20:20 of what we do. These are, corner fed, center fed room. It's gonna break up all the rooms. This is how we attack hallways. Mm-hmm. This is how we deal with doors. Yeah. Yeah. Right? 1:20:30 These techniques, if you have that, now you have the framework for what we do, and then the training piece can be discussions about procedures, right? 1:20:38 And then you can always give them another 40 pages of procedures, and then another 40 pages of contingencies, right, as he progresses. Hmm. Right? But what I see, like even guys that have, 1:20:49 "Well, this is our SOP," and you read through it, it's like, this isn't an SOP. This is a, this is a, a, a list of contingencies, right, that you potentially could have, right? And how you handle contingencies. 1:21:01 Like, where is- The flowchart... the standard operating procedure for how you execute your technique of what you wanna have happen inside each room or inside the structure? All right. 1:21:12 Uh, what's the biggest mistake people do when they set up force on force training? The biggest mistake is, you know, is kind of accountability. It turns into just paintball. Mm-hmm. Right? 1:21:24 What, resoundingly, what I see, like force on force, um, you know, guys wanna do scenarios and not... So it's very scripted, right? And, and it gets to a point, they're like, "Yep, stop." Right? 1:21:39 Or in the CQB world, it's, "We're gonna cock the house, put all the role-players in there, let them have guns, and then we're gonna go outside, and we're gonna hit this thing in five minutes." Right? 1:21:49 Anybody can maintain vigilance for five minutes. Yeah. Right? 1:21:52 So now you get like guys that are laying in am- like, every role-player in there is laying in ambush, and that is the validation that they say, "See, this TTP doesn't work because I was able to shoot you from one room through another room into the hallway at the breach point." 1:22:07 You know, well, I hate to tell anybody, like if you, if you look at any way to do CQB, there is no solution for that, you know, in terms of shooting from a hallway through a room into another room. Yeah. Right? 1:22:19 It's not a shot call. It's not anything. So when you're laying in ambush, then yeah, what would happen to that? 1:22:26 Well, we would lay in, we would receive rounds from the ambush, and we would pull back, and we go into a barricade, surround and call out, and we start gassing and using other initiative- Yeah... 1:22:34 gaining tools to, to make that. So, so structuring, structuring training where it's unrealistic in terms of like the adversaries know you're there, right? 1:22:44 Where I would say, you know, the most, the best success that we have had when we would go do big training events in, in other cities, the aggressors would be SWAT teams from those cities. Mm-hmm. 1:22:56 So they, "Hey, this house is cocked." You know, five or six houses are cocked all, all over the city, and we're at an airport somewhere, and guy- teams are gonna now cycle through to come hit these houses. 1:23:06 So that house is cocked. It may be cocked for forty-five minutes. It may be cocked for two hours. But when you go and hit it, 1:23:13 then their first awareness that they're there is when we give up surprise, which that's the first thing you're gonna give up, whether you give it up with a breach, or you give it up because the f- first shots are fired, or they hear the helicopter land at the door. 1:23:26 So as soon as we, we give up one principle, we're gonna leverage the other ones. But now we get an actual good look because those guys are not maintaining vigilance for two hours. 1:23:39 You know, after a while, their masks are off, they're talking or whatever. "Oh, here they come." And now they're trying to get it together. 1:23:44 So you create a little bit of a chaotic environment for them, and now we come in and are start executing like what we wanna do and kinda force our will on the target. And then 1:23:55 their reaction to it, you know, based off filming it and everything, gauges like, was that TTP successful? Right? And for those conditions at that time, it was, right? In the daytime, it's a speed game, right? 1:24:07 And I, I can't stress that enough. If you don't think it is, it's... Like I, I... You can't get past that barrier. If it's like, "No, it's not speed, it's safety," yeah, it's safety because you're never opposed. 1:24:19 You could go in with just flashlights, and the same outcome would be there. But when it's opposed, right, cops go into a room, they play games in the doorway, they take fire at the doorway. What typically happens? 1:24:33 You fucking leave, don't you? Yeah. You leave the structure, you pull back, surround, and call out. Right? So because the execution was flawed, that you feel like the TTP is flawed, right? 1:24:47 You, you, you paid the penalty for violating a rule of CQB that everyone who does CQB professionally agrees with. I minimize, I don't play games in the most dangerous places. Yeah. 1:24:58 I minimize the time I'm in the, the doorway, and I minimize the time I'm in hallways. Right? That's a rule that never gets violated. 1:25:06 Um, so when you do that, when now, well, when you're standing in the doorways, you're like, "Well, see, he got the drop on us." It's like, well, you were hanging out in the only way to come into the room. 1:25:17 And if a guy is defending a room, where does he direct all his attention at typically? To the door. Doorway. Never the windows. That's why the port teams are so effective. Yeah. Right? 1:25:27 And I could show you videos of guys coming up through windows. 1:25:31 Where a dude is shooting at the main breach of the house, and he never even looks at the, you know, four-ounce explosion that just went off on the window by it, right? 1:25:42 Because he's so keyed into defending it from, from that, from that aspect. But until you can get guys to understand that, and for a lot of dudes, the only way for them to is you have to go to an entry that's opposed. 1:25:53 Yeah. Right? And you're going to learn this the hard way. 1:25:56 You could choose to believe and, like, learn it the easier way, the way that I did, or you can go pay for this and pay the price the way you don't want to, and then realize we, we may have to change how we're doing business. 1:26:07 Yeah. Well, I think, I think, too, and that's, that's where it goes back to this conversation of dynamic. Like, there's, there's dudes that obviously just have never done it, so there, there's the, there's that crowd. 1:26:19 So they don't understand all the nuances to it, so they look back at some narc team, you know, that has their blue jeans on, and they just did some... 1:26:28 They just all flow through the house, and they look like, "Hey, Bubba has this jeans on. This one has that." But truly professional s- dynamics-paced CQB, all things being equal, you're gonna be a dual entry. 1:26:43 There's gonna be port covers. There's gonna be multiple flashbangs. There's gonna be potentially, uh, explosive breaches going on. 1:26:50 So I don't even know that they understand fully what all that entails of how we're messing up what's going on- Yeah... inside that house to gain that advantage back to us continually doing all that. 1:27:01 Well, it's nothing new. Sun Tzu said a long time ago, "March swiftly to places they don't expect you to be." Yeah. I mean, that's been going on for a long time. It's hasn't changed. 1:27:09 In my 21 years there, those, those core principles have not changed. Mm-hmm. How we do it has not changed. Have we brought on new equipment? Yeah. Have we integrated- Yeah... new things? Sure. 1:27:18 But the way of we're doing it, handling and processing rooms, same thing. Yeah. It hasn't changed, and they... Everybody's always looking for that new new, and they chase this- Yeah... 1:27:29 you know, every CQB style comes around where it's the new new again. It's like there's nothing new about it, but somebody put a little twist on it or changed something. They go, "This is the new thing. 1:27:38 This is the best thing." I'll tell you the- Yeah... the CQB that I originally learned in 1994 when I was, you know, with Force Recon units 1:27:48 was points of domination with a little bit different hallway procedure than what I did in the end of my career. So going in from, did that, you know, all the way up until 2004, you know, 1:28:02 came to, to the unit, and then it was, "Wow, this is the exact same CQB." [laughs] It's rou... 1:28:09 Corners are rounded off and some things in terms of, like, how efficient we can be in the, in the hallways and things like that, but inside the room it's the same thing. 1:28:17 And the, it begs the question, why, why do the guys who face the most serious threats, and they face the most opposition, why do they all do the same thing? Mm-hmm. Right? It's because it's effective, right? 1:28:34 If, and I believe, you know, for certain units they're so... 1:28:41 It's so ingrained to be the best and do the best thing and have the best things, that if something else was presented to them that like, "Hey, this is more effective than what we do," we would immediately abandon everything that we do and switch to that. 1:28:55 Mm. Right? And for guys that don't see that, and they, they'll, they'll make... Then the excuses start. "Well, it's, it's because of this. It's because of this. It's because of this. It's because of this." 1:29:07 Total days of CQB training in the unit is nine days. That's the amount of training that you get, nine days. It's 18 one-half days. That's it, and now you're, you have all of the information, now practice, 1:29:25 right? That's very attainable for anyone. Mm-hmm. Right? Nine days of training, right? It's not, you don't do months and months and months and months and months. It's just, it's nine days. 1:29:35 But it goes back to, like, they've, they've selected dudes that are highly trainable, that can understand what they're doing, are more than willing to fight, right? 1:29:46 So when, when all of that lines up, you get to the, you get to a very high level of end state very, very quickly. Yeah. It goes back to earlier, talking about the kind of people that you want. Yeah. 1:29:56 When you're doing a selection, a selection is a never-ending process. 1:29:58 You wanna look for those kind of guys that, to your point, you know, you go through your 18 half days, and they're taking it upon themselves, like, "I gotta do this. I gotta be better at this." Yeah. 1:30:06 And that's how you do that. Otherwise, I mean, true motivation comes from within. I can't make you do it. And there was, there was a, there's a standard of development, right? You meet wickets along the way. 1:30:15 So at any point you don't meet a wicket, that standard gets enforced, and you no longer have a job. [laughs] Right? It's a very effective tool. Yeah, it's cutthroat. Yeah. Yeah. Uh- Gent, we have a question. All right. 1:30:27 Oh, boy. What's up, Zach? What's up, guys? How you doing? What's up, Zach? Can you hear me? Yeah, just right... A little closer, man. A little closer? Put it closer to your mouth. Yeah. There you go. 1:30:36 Hey, uh, I just- [laughs] See? We, um, we really emphasize the importance of AARs in everything we do, particularly in our training runs. 1:30:46 Like, we're running a class, they go in and do a center fed room with four guys, and there's one, one threat target. 1:30:52 We come back, and we AAR one through four men, what they do right, what they do wrong, individually and collectively. 1:30:58 Um, and, and we build that into going onto our multi-team, multi-breach scenario stuff where they're doing planning and all that stuff. W- just wanted to get your take on 1:31:08 how important you think AARs are, and can they help drive a cultural shift within the law enforcement training community if they're done properly- D-... and consistently? Yeah, 100% they can. Um, and you know, 1:31:22 like, for me, having been in a lot of AARs that turn into, they get very emotional and, you know, you, you've gotta keep it, keep it professional. 1:31:32 There's, there's gonna be a certain level of aggression with it that people don't like because you're, you're highlighting mistakes that happen. Right? You're, you don't highlight the successes. 1:31:41 Um, like for me, it's like an AAR shouldn't be come in as like, "Well, I saw this, and then I did this." And guys wanna just celebrate what they did. Like I don't give... Okay, you did everything right, cool. 1:31:51 This was the one time you were technically perfect. Amazing. Now, what did you do wrong? How could it be better? 'Cause we don't learn anything off of our wins. 1:32:00 We only learn anything off of our, you know, failures and mistakes. 1:32:04 But you gotta have guys that are able to have very frank, open conversations, you know, that can be aggressive and still understand that, hey, as soon as we slap the table and that AAR is over and we leave this room, we're a fucking team again, and now we're working to get better. 1:32:19 And we had that hard conversation for the sake of us developing and getting better and understanding, you know. 1:32:26 Because it, it might not be the two guys that are debating the, the execution of something or, or what went wrong or what went right. 1:32:35 Um, but it'll be another guy that hears it that was in there, and now it reinforces like, "Okay, I'm not doing, not gonna make that mistake. I'm gonna make a new mistake- Yeah... on this next one." 1:32:47 Um, so I think the AAR is, you know, it, it's gotta be... It ha- it has to happen. You know, even on larger scale ones, 1:32:55 maybe everyone's there, but you boil that AAR down to where it's just the people that entered the house, and you talk about, you know, not the story that we put forward 1:33:06 after the fact, but actually it's only the guys that were there. It's only the, the dudes on the team, the bros, like what actually happened and why it was fucked up. 1:33:16 Because there's a lot of times you make major, major mistakes, you just get away with it, right? 1:33:21 Because the threat wasn't there at that time, or the engagement window was too small, but it was still a major mistake that we don't wanna make, but we're gonna pay for it in a different way. 1:33:30 So I think it's, it's an, it's an inval- invaluable tool. In terms of training too, I know you, you know this. Like you're, you get really good at like, "Hey, let's go through it. 1:33:39 I don't wanna relive the whole thing, just talk about the mistakes. Let's apply the cues. Let's all agree how the mistake happened, how it didn't, how we can be better. Recock, reset, do another run." Right? 1:33:51 It doesn't need to be turned into a long, protracted debate. And sometimes AARs need to be very directed and pointed, right? Where, where especially for teams that are, are entering and, and no one, 1:34:03 nobody can actually assess where they were at. Like, how many times have you done training where you go back into a room, like, "Hey, this room, go to where you were at in your points of domination." 1:34:12 And guys, they don't know. Yeah. Right? "So what'd you see in this room? Okay, you don't, you don't understand what happened here, so now I'm just gonna feed it to you. Like, this is what happened. 1:34:22 These are the mistakes. It's not open for debate, 'cause I was watching it. I wasn't involved in it, and these are the mistakes that made. Let's recock. Let's run this room again and correct these mistakes." Yeah. 1:34:35 Because a lot of times there's, you know, guys in terms of like awareness and processing, especially when they're learning a new, um, technique or they don't have a lot of reps on whatever tactic you're doing, um, 1:34:49 they get overcome by the situation or the scenario or the event, and they're, they have a hard time recalling like what actually happened. Yeah. Right? 1:34:56 You see it a lot in like, you're talking with Chris Palmer, the, the shooting videos that he has to go back and, and go through, and guys say, "Oh, I was here. I was here." 1:35:05 And then you look at the video, like, "You were not there." No. "You weren't here, right? You think you shot this many rounds. This is how many you actually shot." 1:35:11 Because everybody's, everyone's perception initially, you know, is, is at a very low level, right? In term- They perceive it the way they wanna perceive it- Yeah... regardless of what actually happened. 1:35:23 As you get more and more inoculated to, in my opinion, running at a very fast and hard pace, the vision piece starts to open up to where you do this for five years, six years, hit that decade mark, and now it's like, not only do I know where I was in every room, I can tell you where you were at- Yeah... 1:35:41 in this room at this time. 'Cause the vision has opened up so much 'cause I'm just not overcome by the pace of the events and going from task to task so quickly, you know. 1:35:51 Um, and then a lot, a lot of that starts to Zach's question, like the AAR piece, right? You, this is what the mistake I saw made, and someone's like, "No, that wasn't the mistake." 1:36:02 And you can go back and look at helmet cam footage. Maybe someone, somebody else's helmet cam caught it. Like helmet cams in my opinion are invaluable for training. 1:36:10 Um, don't recommend them for like operations, but for training- [laughing]... they're 100%, you know, invaluable because it shows like what actually happened. The point of view. Point of view of what happened. Mm. Right? 1:36:22 Um, you know, so yeah, AARs are invaluable. Yeah. I think what I've learned over the years just on the team side is when the guys don't fess up to their mistake, and now 1:36:37 you start seeing that it becomes a habit, that's a, that's a big problem that you, that you're like, "Hey, there's a problem." As opposed to the guy who makes the mistakes, like, "Yep. Hey, when it's my, it's my turn. 1:36:46 I'm the fourth guy in. Yeah, I, when I came in, I didn't do this." That's a huge thing for me. I was like, "Okay, at least he knows what he's doing," as opposed to not even knowing when he did something. Or denying it. 1:36:56 Yeah, denying it. Or al- also the other side too is, is it's interesting when you go train other teams, when they start giving excuses of why they did something and you're like, "Dude, I don't really care why you did it. 1:37:10 Just know that you didn't, you did this wrong." And- Yeah... that's where I see guys with the egos, and then the other dudes are like, "Oh yeah. Yeah. Hey, yeah, I appreciate that." 1:37:18 I mean, y'all deal with that a lot when, when y'all teach those HR classes and stuff. It's like, I, I, I don't really care what you do back home. You came to this class to learn this. We're gonna teach you this. 1:37:27 Do whatever you wanna do back home, but we're here to learn something. You know, this is... Why'd you come to this class if you don't wanna hear what we're saying, you know? Yeah. So, um, and stuff. 1:37:38 So, um- I think for guys that- You gotta get going, don't you? Go ahead. Yeah. Uh, I, I think I'm about out of, out of questions here. For guys that aren't- You know, aren't owning their mistakes, right? 1:37:49 You get, you get one time for that. Yeah. Uh, making excuses or whatever. Guy's denying it- Mm... like, that's one time. You do it a second time, now we're talking about is this the right place for you? Yeah. Right? 1:38:01 Because that's, that's a fatal character flaw. Like, guys that are not owning up to decisions they make, you know, actions that they take, right? And you're, you're making excuses or, 1:38:15 "Well, it was this that caused me to do that." You still did it. You have to own that. Yeah. Right? And that goes, plays back into, like, is it the right guy? Like, everybody wants to do it, not everyone can do it. Yeah. 1:38:27 And, and I think as a, as a, like, a leadership position, as a team leader, you better own it as well. Like, "Hey, whatever, if the plan didn't go right- Well, it starts with you... I mean, you, you have to, man. 1:38:36 There's been things that I've owned, I'm like, really not a big deal, but it, it, I didn't think it was, you know, cost any deal, but it was just something bothering me and I was like, "Hey, I should have done this," or, "I wish I'd have hit that window instead of this window when I planned it." 1:38:49 Uh, but I think that's important for the guys to, to, to hear that and stuff. So, um, man, I think we're pretty much out of questions and, uh, looks like the guys out there 1:38:59 got a lot of beer in their hands, so, um, Adrian, you got a question, man? Got any questions? Bring them up. Let's go, man. Let's see it. He can't hold the mic, he's gotta have two beers. 1:39:08 [laughs] He's got double fisting. It's been a long day on the range for old Adrian- Yeah. [laughs] Yeah... out there. Yeah. Yeah, so. No. All right. Well, y'all have anything else? Nope. Enjoyed it. Yeah, man. 1:39:18 Matt, you got anything? No, man, this was great. Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate it. Well, good luck on your, uh, big speech tomorrow night. [laughs] Um. That's gonna be the real redneck live. Yeah, that's- Yeah. 1:39:28 It's the one way redneck live. I'm gonna heckle, heckle you. Are you gonna wear underwear or no underwear? Uh, I'm gonna wear my underwear on the outside. [laughs] Yes, I like that. I like that, so. 1:39:38 All right, well, uh, that, that's all I have. What do y'all have? Anything else? Yeah. All right, Matt's- I enjoyed it... gonna go... 1:39:43 The other Matt's gonna go do some, uh, talk, tech talk or something like that, and we got another interview, so Matt's not gonna be in the next one, so. All right, that's all I got, boys and girls. Appreciate it. 1:39:53 Y'all train hard. Thank you. [upbeat music] Thank you for tuning into this episode of Iron Sights. 1:39:58 If you enjoyed our conversation, you can support our mission by hitting the subscribe button, leaving a review, and sharing the podcast with a friend. I'll see you on the next episode.