Transcript 0:00 In this episode of the Iron Sights podcast, we cover a topic that several people have asked us to cover, and that is the impacts and effects and application of the use of nicotine. So I got the whole crew in here today. 0:11 That's Ryan, Steven, CC, and myself. And we go through a little bit of backstory, a little bit of background on nicotine, how it works within the body, what it does in the brain. 0:20 And then we get into some downstream effects that could be an advantage or disadvantage for human performance. Try to peel back some of the layers on some of the things you may or may not be familiar with. 0:30 We'll talk about the pouches, uh, dip, chew, smoking, that is specifically cigarettes and cigars. 0:37 And we'll talk about the patches, we'll talk about the lozenges, we'll talk about the gum, and we'll talk about the recent authorization of nicotine by the FDA. 0:45 So whether you currently utilize nicotine or you're a little bit of afraid of it or you just don't understand it, hopefully this one helps you be a little bit more informed and you can make a decision moving forward. 0:56 [whooshing sound] If you listen to the show regularly, then you know all of these podcasts are sponsored by Red Dot Fitness training products and programs. 1:02 You can find out more about Red Dot Fitness by going to RDF Train Online. 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[rock music] Welcome to Iron Sights. 1:53 This podcast candidly seeks to create opportunities and deliver impact by sharing the experiences and wisdom of successful entrepreneurs and thought leaders who unapologetically aim to win in health, fitness, business, and life. 2:07 I'm your host, Scott Howell. Welcome to old school meets new school, tradition meets innovation, and imperfection meets excellence. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the show. 2:19 Today, we are back in the Iron Sights studio with, uh, with the crew. Steven, Ryan, CC, and me. We're gonna talk about nicotine today. Uh, hot topic. 2:29 C- uh, sorry, not CC, but Steven and I chat a little bit ago, and I was like, "We gotta get into the, to the nicotine conversation." Fast-growing industry. 2:40 Many, many, many of the people that I hang out with, uh, partake in, uh, like in nicotine pouches, including myself. Um, I think there's a lot to talk about here. 2:52 I think people wanna know some things, and there's been a lot of news sort of lately that came up about it because the FDA just authorized nicotine packets, uh, to be basically okay. 3:03 I think anybody that listens to this show knows my, um, feelings about the government telling us what we should and shouldn't put in our bodies, um, but I thought that was an interesting play. 3:11 And when it came up, you know, on the major news circuits or whatever, I think I put it in my Instagram story, and then I sent it to a bunch of guys that, um... 3:20 All males, by the way, and it's not that this is just for males, but those are the, those dudes are, I know are into it and have maybe transitioned from tobacco products 3:28 into the nicotine pouches and, uh, for different reasons. Um, but everybody's really excited about that, like they got validated. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. [laughs] So, yeah. "Oh, so it is okay," and I'm like- Yeah... 3:38 "Yeah, you weren't saying that a couple years ago about the FDA," but now when they come out with this- Yeah. [laughs]... you're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah." When it validates your bias, yeah. 3:45 [laughs] The FDA is coming on board. Well, the FDA says so, so... Maybe they're just falling in line like all the other major, uh, institutions and companies out there. [clears throat] Target. [laughs] Oh, Target. God. 3:58 But, uh, yeah, uh, nicotine's an interesting conversation. There's a lot to know about it. I mean, I, it's gotten... 4:03 It certainly has gotten, um, some negative attention over the years as its, with its relation to tobacco products, part- particularly cigarettes. 4:13 Um, w- w- we need to talk about that a little bit, just kind of the differences. Um, but nicotine, huge benefits in a lot of ways to a lot of things that we're gonna talk about. 4:22 And so, you know, we'll talk about today the neurocognitive benefits of nicotine, uh, how it works, not getting too science-y, but I think you kind of want to have an understanding of, of why this stuff is so, so effective, so we're trying not to bore you with stuff. 4:36 And a lot of that, the neuroscience is well beyond my realm, but I understand it, I think, enough to kind of give a simple overview. 4:43 Uh, that and then, you know, how it can be used for performance enhancement, um, we'll talk about that again neurocognitively, but also what, what we're seeing or what's being currently researched with regard to, uh, physical enhancement or perf- let's, sorry, let's call it performance enhancement on, like, the physical side of things, maybe for your athlete, um, or your skills development. 5:04 Uh, so we'll talk a little bit about that today. So, um, I think, again, it's, it's a, it's a topic when you start looking at the brands and the things that are out there, partly because it's a huge moneymaker. 5:15 I mean, the industry over the last four years, something... I think actually some of this, the studying kind of went back to like 2017, and don't quote me on these numbers, but it was like 5:27 125 million cans being imported a year. In two years or three years, it went to like 808 million. [laughs] Wow. There's money to be made. So with that comes, comes, you know, some positives and negatives. 5:38 Obviously that, that leaves room for bad actors to kind of move into the space and sell products that, uh, certainly may not be considered safe or you're not getting what you think you're getting kind of thing, and so there's research going into this. 5:52 So I think the, the end, end of this... By the end of this, you'll understand that kind of the jury's still out on a lot of things, but it isn't on others and it's... 6:02 We've nailed down a few things, again, particularly on the neurocognitive side, which really, really interests me when it comes to human performance and, and the application of how you might 6:13 Um, use nicotine to perform better as a human in, in a lot of different ways. So I wanted to get into that. So where do you guys wanna start with this? 6:21 You wanna kind of start at the top, Steven, with just nicotine in general and kind of how it works? Mm-hmm. Sure. 6:28 Well, first I'll say, uh, from my perspective, this conversation kind of boils down to separating nicotine from tobacco products, because I think nicotine has always been demonized as, like, this is the harmful, addictive substance that keeps you addicted to cigarettes, that keeps you addicted to chewing tobacco. 6:46 Um, all of these tobacco products that are pretty much verified bad for you. There's really... It's more or less irrefutable evidence that- Science is out. Yeah... 6:55 yeah, that cigarettes, chewing tobacco, not good for you. 6:58 So I think the conversation boils down to what happens when we isolate nicotine from everything else that's in a cigarette, from everything else that comes with a tobacco product. 7:09 And when we look at nicotine in isolation, which is not new, like, this is not... This has been researched since, I believe, like, the '60s or '70s. 7:17 I s- found an article from 1991 talking about the potential cognitive benefits of nicotine in isolation. 7:25 So I think that's important to, uh, to create that boundary, that we're not saying cigarettes are good for you because they have nicotine in them. 7:33 When we remove the nicotine and use it on its own, it could be beneficial for you. So- Good point... nicotine is a, 7:40 it's a stimulant, so a lot of the benefits we see as far as the cognitive side of things are in line with other types of stimulants. So there are what are called nicotinic, uh, cholinergic receptors in your brain. 7:54 Basically, the nicotine binds to these receptor sites, and it leads to the release of what are called catecholamines as well as serotonin. 8:02 So the catecholamines are, like, your dopamine, norepinephrine, acetylcholine, all of these neurotransmitters that are associated with improved focus, improved attention. 8:13 And w- and we know these things, and we know that nicotine will trigger a release of these, uh, of these neurotransmitters, these excitatory neurotransmitters. 8:21 So there can be, you know, s- there's definitely positive benefits to that in terms of cognitive enhancement. And I think the next part of the conversation is, okay, well, what about side effects? Right. 8:31 What, what could this do to me long term? And then we have to get into the conversation of, of dosing, of method of application. How are you actually getting the nicotine? 8:41 How much of the nicotine are you getting in one sitting? So there's a lot of ways that we could go with that. Yeah, there's a ton of ways. 8:47 I think one of the interesting parts about it is that nicotine is a naturally derived substance, right? So aside from the tobacco leaf and it being contained in there, you, you'll find it in nature in your nightshades. 8:59 So things like eggplant, uh, tomatoes. Those are, those are... Y- you'll find much lower levels, like- I was gonna say, it's trace amounts though, right? Tr- trace amounts. Versus tobacco is high, yeah. 9:10 But versus tobacco is very high. So, um, the other thing interesting about that, and so nature has already produced this thing. This is not... And, and by the way, if we go way back in history, 9:21 wherever you are from the planet, tribal, you know, east, west, South American, you know, Americans, well, you know, and, uh, let's say, let's call them Native American, Native American Indians, uh, they knew about this stuff a long time ago. 9:34 Like, somewhere at some point, [scoffs] somebody found tobacco leaves and ingested it, likely through smoking it. Yeah. Right? And recognized the effects of it. 9:46 So this has been go- this, this has been around for a long time and sort of known about. 9:50 Scientifically, we're getting, uh, you know, going back, s- you know, Steven just said, we've known about, you know, the benefits of it for a long time, but it's been used in a lot of different applications for s- millennia, right? 10:00 So that's, that's one thing. And, and also the, the body, and we'll talk about this, I think, is set up with nicotine receptors. So they're just not stimulated by those. 10:12 Most people would never stimulate those through the ingestion of those nightshade- Of, of bell peppers, yeah. [laughs] Bell peppers and tomatoes and eggplants and things like that. 10:19 So, um, we're hard-coded as humans to receive this stuff, and there's a very natural reaction that happens chemically in the body and, uh, from a m- a metabolic perspective, and how that happens is interesting. 10:32 And then when we talk about, like, how you're ingesting it, you know, are you smoking it? Are you taking it through, um, are you putting, like, a pouch in so it's like a mucal- mu- mucosal membrane absorption? 10:44 How those things interact, and then going back to things like when, when does it become bad, or when is it kind of a, a tough thing when we look at, like, the smoking situation and how it's being ingested, that's likely one of the, one of the downsides to... 10:59 Well, one of the hardest things about quitting smoking. And I think the jury's still out on that. I don't think they have that quite figured out yet. 11:04 But there's some, we can, there's some causation there, I think, that we can probably draw some, some connection to. So- [laughs]... having said that, um, you know, let's, let's just go back to kind of how it works. 11:15 You mentioned a couple of really scientific words there in terms of what's going on chemically in the body- Mm-hmm... um, and more particularly the brain. 11:22 And we can talk about what's going on cardiorespiratory, from a cardiorespiratory. Let's, let's call it cardiovascularly, and then also respiratory-wise when we're looking at, like, smoking. 11:32 But let's talk about that a little bit. Just give people, we can give people sort of the high level on it. As far as, like, how nicotine is attaching to receptor sites and- Yeah, yeah, yeah. 11:40 So yeah, that, that's, like you mentioned, the hard-coded nicotinic cholinergic receptors are specific receptor sites that nicotine is meant to bind with. 11:49 So when you are ingesting nicotine, that is eventually going to get to your brain. It's gonna get to these receptor sites, and it releases these excitatory neurotransmitters, these type of stimulating neurotransmitters. 12:02 So it impacts the central nervous system- Yes... with that. Right. And so then with the, i- impacting the central nervous system, then that's gonna be your increase in, um, s- Uh, sorry, cardiac output- Could be. 12:13 Mm-hmm... right? Increased blood flow. Yes. Yeah. Increased heart rate. I think that's a, that's a, if we want, that's kind of crossing over into the cardiovascular side of things. That is interesting. 12:20 Increased heart rate. I- Increased metabolic rate. 12:22 Yeah, I think no matter how you're ingesting it, one of the things you wanna understand is that nicotine can plus, pass through very easily the blood-brain barrier, so it can get right into there. 12:32 Um, and that's an important thing to understand. And two things, one, the timing of the effects, uh, and then also when we look at, like, the half-life or how long it, the effects actually last. 12:44 Uh, again, th- that, that's related to a lot of things, but yep, go on with the nicotine. 12:49 Well, yeah, I think that, that kind of leads me in the direction of when you talk about half-life and you talk about dosing- Mm-hmm... things like that, um, and you talked about the different, uh, methods of application. 12:59 So, you know, the q- the question could be, okay, well, this was my question. When I heard about, um, Zyn being- Right... FDA approved as a, as a nicotine replacement therapy, I thought, "Why is this a big deal?" 13:10 Like, we've had nicotine patches, and we've had nicotine gum- And lozenges... for so long. Yeah. We, we separated the nicotine from the tobacco a long time ago. Why is this... W- w- what's the difference here? 13:19 Um, and as I was getting into it a little bit more, I started to see the, the difference in the, the dosage or the hit of nicotine you get in cigarettes versus in a pouch versus in a patch versus in gum, and that is important, uh, not only for the half-life and the effects and how quickly you're feeling the effects, but also the, the, uh, a- addiction potential there. 13:42 Mm-hmm. 13:42 Like, how big of a dose you're getting and how fast you're getting that dose and how immediately you're feeling those effects and how long you're feeling those effects has a direct effect on how addictive the substance could be. 13:54 So the, the cigarettes, you're getting a much larger dose of nicotine per cigarette than you are with, like, a nicotine patch or a nicotine gum, and it seems like the pouches are kind of somewhere in between. 14:04 There's, like, a sweet spot where people are getting the sensation, the high that they're looking for, but it's not as big as if they were smoking a cigarette. Yeah. Does that make sense? 14:14 So yeah, to- I m- till, totally makes sense. Thanks. I think the, the, the people looking for numbers, and what do you mean high versus low? So 14:23 I, I think cigarettes, you can get up to, like, 15 milligrams of nicotine in a cigarette, up to, whereas most of these pouches, uh, are in the s- you know, three to six milligrams, sometimes a size eight. 14:35 I mean, if you go overseas, I... There, apparently there are- Get some stiff ones [laughs] They get s- like, 100- [laughs]... you know, type... Yeah, exactly. Jesus. [laughs] Ryan's going. 14:44 He's already throwing up in his mouth a little bit. [laughs] The nausea is setting in, yeah. 14:48 So th- th- there is a, like, dosage is a thing, and then the delivery system, again, going through the muco- mucosal membranes w- of your mouth, right? 14:56 And then being transferred into the brain to get it do, to do what it does versus smoking it. 15:01 You're heating it up, so that has an impact when you're smoking, and you're taking it directly into the lungs, which gets directly into the, to the, to the bloodstream, which then gets directly to the brain. 15:12 So not only are you getting a larger hit, you're getting it faster and in a heavier dose, and so that... And we'll talk about the effects here and what you're feeling and what's going on here in a second. 15:23 But you're, you're gonna get that rush or that feeling, the feelings that we'll talk about much faster, right? 15:30 And so that could be probably one of the reasons why cigarettes are so addictive, is the, the, um, what you're feeling, how fast you're feeling it, and the intensity at which you're feeling that. 15:39 Um, i- it could be part of the oral fixation piece. People can, you know, wanna talk about. There's still a lot of research going on out there. 15:45 They've used, they use these pouches for, uh, nic- nicotine rep- replacement therapy, as it's called NRT, and the, again, the jury's still out on that, is, like, how helpful is it really? 15:56 Um, and so there, you know, there's a lot of people doing a lot of stuff with that, but then, like, you go to, one of the things that's important to talk about is what, what, what's, what are you onboarding when you're w- in these, in these different applications? 16:08 So the pouch versus a dip, you know, or chew versus the cigarette. 16:14 And when we're looking at tobacco, and you're actually putting, smoking the tobacco leaf or, or ingesting the, the, the, the tobacco leaf in some way, I think it's, like, s- there's, like, 69 chemicals that have been identified, like, in the tobacco leaf alone, and several of those, I wanna say it's, like, eight, at least eight, are known to be carcinogenic. 16:35 So already we're playing in kind of, I don't wanna call it danger zone, but that's, that should be a, a concern. You know, if you- Red flag. Yeah, red flag if you're, if you're, if you're smoking. 16:44 And then take that to the next level when you're smoking it and all the things that smoke does to the alveoli, which are those cells that exchange the oxygen with the blood inside the, inside the lung tissue, and, and what you're onboarding, you know, with that smoke. 16:59 Um, that's where it gets scary, and that's what's causing cancers, and that's what's killing people. The particulate matter matters. Well, I was about to say, you're heating it, too, right? You're heating it. 17:06 So, I mean, as far as when you're heating it, then you're obviously changing the element of it at some point. Yeah, yeah. It's like- Changing the composition of that... cracking an egg open, right? Yeah. 17:13 Cracking an egg open versus putting it into a hot pan. Like, what happens, basically you're, you're, you're changing the molecular structure there through the heat. So what happens once it gets in there? 17:23 So that's something to consider versus, like, chew, where you're putting in there, yes, it's the mucosal membrane, but by now we know doing that causes all kinds of mouth cancers, or can. 17:32 Um, it's more probably a matter of time, you know? 17:35 And then the other thing to think about here is there's the concept of being an individual and how each of these things impacts you as an individual versus somebody else. 17:44 Can there be some type of, um, resistance built up to this? Um, that's a little bit unknown, right? 17:51 In, in that it, again, it's all based on the individual, what their tolerance level is and how intense the thing will feel or impact them when they put, put it in their body. 17:59 That's kinda how it works with everything, right? Um, but, um, anyway, so, so that said, again, so tobacco leaf contains some carcinogenic, uh, properties, and something we wanna be careful of. 18:12 Now, when you put it in a cigarette versus, like, maybe just having the fermented tobacco that goes into a cigar or goes into your dip or your chew- That's even a little bit different because they're adding additional chemicals to that cigarette tobacco that may be coming from something that's a little bit closer to Earth, touched less by human hands or, or, or produced in more of a, um, 18:34 organic type of environment. So there's all these kind of different levels there. One of the other th- things that I, I read that was kind of s- that came up in these studies is, [clears throat] 18:43 pardon me, how you may be predisposed to impacts of this one way or another, but certainly in terms of intensity and, uh, the half-life that it exists in terms of the, the, the lasting impacts. That could be, 18:57 I think it was for, uh, Black, African American, Chinese was, was particularly wa- what was in this, so, uh, this is not cut- crossing all Asian cultures. Uh, but it is definitely the ch- the Chinese culture. 19:12 The half-life there is actually longer, right? And the impacts are actually maybe a little bit more intense in these studies. Again, in these, there were many, many that I, that I went through and read. 19:22 This one particular, versus like Caucasian, Hispanic, um, or I can't remember what the other one was, other. 19:29 So I thought, I found that interesting, so maybe, you know, your, your, your heritage, you know, your background could... I- it plays a, plays a role here, too. And that's a predisposition to how addictive it is- Mm... 19:40 is essentially what the study was getting at. Could be, yes. So- Because of how long the effects last and how it impacts you- Yeah, how your body-... specifically-... breaks it down or- Right... how it utilizes it... 19:48 like, yeah, your, pushes all the bells and whistles for, for one group- So it's-... genetically versus another. Yeah, so, um, r- the, great segue. Let's talk about the bells and whistles. 19:56 So nicotine's very interesting, right? 19:58 Because again, you have these nicotinic receptors th- that are, that are, that your body is already naturally, um, uh, put together with, and it's not being stimulated, so it's just ready. It's, like, naked, right? 20:10 And it's ready to just- S- somebody come bind to me. [laughs] Right. It's just, let's, let's get together here, right? [laughs] Is what it's, what it's waiting for. 20:17 And so when that, when, when that, when that happens in the brain, then there's a couple of different things that happen, which I find very diff- very interesting, and I think people probably may have a sense of this but didn't really realize what was going on. 20:30 In that there's, we talk about acetylcholine and what that does as, as a neurotransmitter, right? 20:37 And basically what that does is it can increase, when, when that is released, right, or stimulated, what you get is a higher level of focus. So you're getting, 20:47 like, if you're working on a particular task, and this is what a lot of the self-reports of the studies will, will tell you from the neurocognitive side, is like if you're focused on a task, writing, reading, learning something new, it increases the intensity of the focus that you will have, which is pretty cool, right? 21:03 I've heard that. I read that as well. That, and it helps with the fine motor skills, too. That's the next thing. That's the, yeah, the dopamine component. 21:10 So we'll talk about application here and kind of, you know, my thoughts on, on, on where it could be helpful for people in a little bit. But yes, so fine motor skill. 21:18 So if you're, if you're doing something that requires that, and you have that intense focus, you c- you're basically getting, like, supercharged, which is very cool. 21:26 Now, at the same time, um, and, um, Steven mentioned this before, there is a serotonin response, so, which then triggers dopamine, right? And dopamine is the thing that, it's the feel-good one. 21:38 It's the feel-good hormone, right, or chemical. That's the one that everybody's chasing one way or another, right? 21:44 And I find that to be super interesting that at one, at, from one side of it, you are getting, ul- you can get uber focused. On the other side, you're also being mellowed out, right? 21:54 So you're, you're in this, there's a, there's not much else out there that can do that, right? 21:59 Aside from maybe a pharmaceutical drug or a illicit drug, in some cases they can do that, like combine heroin [laughs] and methamphetamine, right? Like, bad, but s- sort of similar effects. 22:12 [laughs] You end up somewhere right in the middle. Yeah, somewhere in the middle. Dosages may vary. Yeah. [laughs] Um, don't do this at home, folks. 22:18 But the, the, the point of that is, is that is very interesting in terms of, again, task learning or how you're handling your day, what type of environment you might be in, um, and, and how this thing, how you might, you know, utilize nicotine to, to enhance performance. 22:32 So, you know, when you're looking at, like, that dopamine response, again, that feel-good, that feel-good response, I, you know, things came up for me, you know, in thinking about that in my own usage of nicotine, and I'm like, "That makes perfect sense," and I didn't really credit that as much in that it does mellow you out and makes you feel a little bit down-regulated, uh, you know, in, in a sense. 22:53 Um, and you know, I got to thinking about it, I was like, God, with all the people, all the problems that exist out there with people and their dopamine response because they've overstimulated it through something, or they're looking for it to be overstimulated through something, behaviors, um, drugs, um, and even pharmaceutical drugs like SSRIs, where we're trying to balance out that dopamine response for somebody with a depressive disorder o- of some kind. 23:18 Where does this fit in? Now, I'm, I'm not entirely sure. I don't know. But that, that came up for me in, in kind of reading deeper into this, listening to people talk about it that are, you know, s- 23:29 very much on the science end of, of the whole thing. I was like, wow, there's probably a lot of application here. But, um, something to, to understand if you're using nicotine, that you have kind of this double response. 23:40 Combine that with caffeine, you know, and what do we have here, you know? Like, again, you have two very natural substances that come from, you know, the earth, and we can combine those together. 23:53 And, and again, caffeine being a highly studied ergogenic aid, right? As well as, uh, neurocognitive, there's some neurocognitive benefit there at some level. 24:02 Put those things, those two things together and you're, you know, you're, you're kind of, like, hitting the afterburner button. The interesting part is, like, how long does it last, again, and, like, who does it- Yeah... 24:10 who does it impact? Yeah, can that be, c- can that be, uh-... n- can that have a negative side effect? I was gonna use a- Yep... larger word, but, um, [laughs] can that have a negative side effect over time? 24:21 Like, you know, if I'm, you know, we've talked about before, like, if I'm pushing that caffeine button over and over and over again, eventually I'm not gonna get the same response. 24:28 So I think when it comes to the combina- That was, I thought of that as well when I was looking... I hadn't really looked much into nicotine prior to this conversation, so I was looking into it more. 24:38 I was thinking, "This is somewhat similar to caffeine- Mm-hmm... 24:41 in terms of how this can be utilized and where that, you know, finding that boundary between where this is a, a performance or a cognitive enhancer and when we kind of cross over to the other side of it being potentially..." 24:54 Harmful sounds like a, a strong word, um, but yeah, where you can get, uh, to the point of diminishing returns- Yeah, so you-... with how often you're using it and how much. 25:02 Yeah, your, almost like a crutch or dependency on- Yeah... in order for me to get ready, I have to, you know- Use the stimulant. Yeah... in- induce, ingest these, yeah, these stimulants or these substances. 25:13 So again, nicotine being an interesting one, where caffeine is more known as a stimulant. Nicotine is both a stimulant in a neurocognitive way from a focus perspective, 25:23 but, um, the dopamine response creates this sense of relaxation. And you get, like, a euphoria from nicotine that you don't get from caffeine- Yep. So-... in my personal experience. 25:33 [laughs] So when people say it's a high, you know, they get- Yeah... like, the high or whatever, it's kind of like a buzz. Yeah, depending on how... 25:38 Again, there's, uh, you gotta keep in mind here, and I, I, I, I won't quit saying this, there's this concept of individuality. Yeah. So each, each person is, is affected differently. 25:47 Yeah, that's w- I mean, I mean, I'm really absorbing a lot of what you guys are saying with this. And my, you know, my experience with nicotine, um, I've actually never done things like a pouch or anything like that. 25:56 It's been in other forms, and I've kind of had a l- uh, honestly like a love-hate with it. I feel things really strongly generally- [coughs]... even with caffeine or other substances. 26:04 And so it's kind of, I was thinking when we first were talking about how it almost being like an up-regulator- Mm... 26:09 um, that it, like, increased heart rate, things like that, but then it almost m- eh, it's had a weird effect, and it might honestly just been the dosage I was taking. It almost made me, like, a little foggy. Mm-hmm. 26:20 It almost makes me feel, like, kind of sedated, too. Yeah. Kind of stuck. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. 26:24 So that's where I've, like, struggled with, like, again, and maybe it's, like, the dosage or the individuality b- and, and because I feel, I tend to feel substances really aggressively. 26:32 Like, even, like, we've talked about some of the different aids. Um, there's even, like, a, a focus aid that when [laughs] I drink those, I feel very wired- Right... in a weird way. 26:40 And, and so I've, I've never really played with it, too, but I, I wonder, like, if it, that's mainly just, like, the dosage that I've been using and things like that because it hasn't been an effect where like, "Oh, I feel really good. 26:49 I like this. I want more of this." Yeah. It's been something that's almost turned me off from it. I'd be curious as, as far as, like, the method of how you were ingesting it as well. Yeah, that was my question, too. Um. 26:57 Yeah. Was this, like, a hookah or something like that? Yeah, I mean, I've never done, like, a hookah or even, like, you'll feel a little bit from a cigar. I've ever- Or vaping or something... 27:04 a vape or something like that. Yeah. But I've never done, [laughs] um, I've never done chew or anything like that- Mm... or a pouch, so, but... Yeah. It, there's some other things happening, huh? 27:11 I wonder if there's also mechanisms with those as well, those forms. Yeah, um, yeah, probably. Versus the pouch, you know. Yeah. 27:17 There, there probably, again, and, and I think that has to do, again, concept of indivi- individuality and the- Mm-hmm... intensity at which your body reacts to it. Yeah. 27:24 Um, there's some other, so we're talking about sort of sympathetic, parasympathetic- Yeah... nervous systems and kind of what's going on. 27:29 There's some other downstream things that are happening there, too, from a cardiovascular perspective. Um, it is, nicotine is known to be a vasoconstrictor. Mm. Right? 27:40 So you, in general, that's what it's known for, so it actually makes the blood vessels a little smaller. Yeah. So as, as that happens, you could get an increased heart rate and blood pressure. Mm. Right? 27:51 Uh, so that is a very natural response to this type of a substance and kind of what's going on in there, and how does that interplay with, you know, performance? Yeah. Um, and there's been a lot of, you know, study... 28:02 There's been a, well, I don't want to say a lot. 28:04 There's been c- quite a few, and I think there'll be quite a few more in terms of, like, how would that impact you on a, you know, like, in a, a human performance perspective in a, like, an athletics or an event from a cardiorespiratory perspective if you're more of an endurance athlete and, or, you know- Uh-huh... 28:18 from an anaerobic perspective if you're more of a, like, a weightlifter or, you know, short sprint type of athlete. 28:24 I actually came across some articles talking about that as far as the impact of nicotine on athletes, endurance athletes, and then also power athletes, and then percei- rate of perceived exertion- Mm... 28:35 for those individuals, and I f- thought that information was really interesting because, um, the jury is still out- Mm... as far as the performance aspect. 28:42 However, their rate of perceived exertion, the, it seems like the, the trend is that individuals, I think maybe it has to do more with the dopamine response, but the, uh, rate of perceived exertion, they can go longer. 28:55 I think it was, like, 12 or 17% more to their time of exhaustion. Right. Mm. So there's a, um, w- I guess, what's the term I'm looking for here? What, what you're feeling is, like, their threshold is a little deeper. 29:09 Mm-hmm. Right? They can go a little longer. 29:11 Or, and so there's actually, I, there were some other things in there that I read in some of those, those papers, those published, or, and peer-reviewed articles about pain thresholds being a little higher as well- Mm-hmm... 29:23 um, you know, with the use of nicotine. And, uh, those were, uh, largely done around the gum, by the way. There was, there were some pouches and, and, and, and there was a lot of stuff done with the gum 'cause we, we... 29:36 Steven mentioned it. We have it in the form of, you can get in, you know, in the form of vape, tobacco products, smoking them, uh, chewing them. There's, there's snuff and snus. 29:46 There's the, you know, dip, or there's the powdered form that you might, you know, you might be inhaling, uh, nasally or whatever, or smoking. And then there's, uh, I mentioned the gum. 29:56 There's lozenges, and then obviously the pouches. So they're all, they're all coming with various, you know, and th- th- those are different delivery systems, so those, those play into, to it here. 30:06 But there are, there are all these different forms. And again, what are we taking in? We're taking in, like, in the pouch, what you've got is nicotine, which is basically made up of, like, a nicotine salt, right? 30:16 It's been broken down and it's either been derived, uh, in a laboratory or it's been extracted from the tobacco leaf. 30:23 So that's something to think about, too, when you're using these products and maybe digging in a little deeper on, like, where is this actually coming from, right? 30:31 Because if it's coming directly from the leaf, right, we already mentioned, you know, you're getting... You're, you're, you... 30:37 Again, if it's being extracted, are you onboarding those other 69, you know, chemicals that come along with it? Yeah. 30:41 And I think that's, that's an important distinction between, like, your Zyn and your, you know, other brands that are out there, I don't know, Skoal, for example, that have been producing nicotine pouches for a long time. 30:52 Nicotine pouches or, or tobacco pouches is actually probably a more, uh, accurate way to describe what's been around for a long time as an alternative to dip, but then that still contains those other components- Yeah... 31:04 of tobacco. So it's not like, oh, pouches are pouches. Not necessarily. Like, the Zyn is going to be a tobacco-free product, whereas your whatever, Skoal pouches that have been around forever contain tobacco. 31:16 So is that why Zyn now is being, being approved by the FDA? Yeah. Yes. Like, versus other products that- That's a key difference. Yeah. Okay. Right. Yeah. 31:22 Otherwise, like, yeah, Skoal, Copenhagen, all these other brands be like, "We've been producing pouches for 20 years or more." Yeah. This isn't new, right? So Zyn is synthesized in a lab, basically? No. 31:32 It's being- Or is it derived from tobacco? It's being derived. Okay. So, so you've got... There's, there's a couple things here. All the brands do something a little bit differently. 31:40 You probably wanna know who you're getting your stuff from. 31:42 I have read a, sort of a, I won't say this is a peer-reviewed article, but there was some comparison in a quote, unquote "independent lab," which is always paid for by the product companies- Yeah... 31:52 [laughs] just like these, these studies are, where some brands were quote, unquote "cleaner" than others. 32:00 Um, and I'll just say this, Zyn wound up there sort of at, I think, at the top of the list, as we're mentioning that brand a lot. Um, I'm not paid by Zyn. We're not paid by Zyn. [laughs] I do use Zyns. 32:10 Um, you wanna sponsor the podcast, let me know. [laughs] I'd be happy to have a conversation with you. If business is booming. [laughs] Business, business is business. 32:16 [laughs] Uh, but at the end, uh, but, but there, there's those things to consider. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, good point, Steven. Like, a tobacco pouch is the same as putting dip in. 32:24 You're just getting it, you know, uh, enveloped- In a filtered pouch... enveloped, enveloped in a pouch that- Yeah. It's supposed to be-... keeps it from getting messy... yeah, it doesn't- Yeah... 32:30 yeah, not as messy, and it doesn't cut up your gum quite as bad- Right... at least in my personal experience. I always had this weird fear, 'cause I've had friends who chewed, 32:38 and obviously they have some random cup just sitting there with their spit in it. Oh, they have the spitter. 32:43 And I always had this nightmare that I would one day be like, "Oh, my," I don't know, "my Diet Coke," and I would accidentally go- Oh, it happens. Oh, I've seen it happen. Oh, uh- Oh, you've s- Oh, yeah. 32:50 I've seen people- I would yak... oh, yeah. Yeah. If- The, the nightmare scenario is, like, you've had a, a long night of drinking- Mm... and you're in bed, and you reach for the nightstand to grab your water- Oh... 32:59 'cause you're so thirsty in the middle of the night. Oh, no. [laughs] And you grab the wrong one. Ugh. That's why you never leave those on your nightstand. Ugh. I never did that. I wasn't like a le... 33:07 I thought the spitter is very gross. Yeah. Like, I was never leaving those around. Ugh. But, uh, but yeah, I, I know, uh, especially from my baseball playing days, like, some guys that did that. Yeah. 33:15 Like, "Oh, yeah, I drank my spitter at 3:00 AM." Oh, God. And, uh, yeah, then I went and I, uh, vomited. [laughs] Ugh. My whole body is going into convulsions over here. I know. 33:24 [laughs] I was in, I was in the car or truck with, with three other dudes, one sitting in the back, and dude in the front seat had had way too much to drink that night. 33:31 We were on our way back after a bunch of debauchery and poor adult behavior. [laughs] And, uh, the guy, the guy driving was sober. The two of us in the back had had a few. 33:41 Uh, and the guy in the front had, like I said, in the passenger seat, had way too many, reached over into the console, thinking he was grabbing something that he wasn't. Oh. Mm-hmm. 33:47 It was in a can, and he drank that stuff, and we let it happen. We saw it going down- [laughs] Oh, they were fucking assholes... 33:53 and we, we let it happen, and, and it was immediate throwing up in the, on the floorboard of the car- Oh, God. Oh... pulling over to the side of the road. Oh. I didn't see any of that. No. 34:01 I only heard and smelled it, because I was- Oh, that's enough. Oh... laughing so hard I had tears coming down my face. Oh. I couldn't even see. Yeah, it's- Pretty funny. It happens. It happens fairly frequently. 34:08 So that's why I am, I am all about the pouches over the chew. [laughs] So- 'Cause I don't have to deal with that... so there's something to be said for that, too, and just kind of the discreetness of the pouches. Mm-hmm. 34:17 Yeah. So whether you're working in an office setting, you're, you know, in a classroom, you're at work, whatever the case is, like, you can... 34:23 You know, with these pouches, it makes it, uh, less messy- Yeah, a little more socially-... a little more discreet... accessible, or acceptable rather. Yeah. It's not... 34:30 You're not, you don't have all this, like, brown spit that you're putting in- And stained teeth... yeah. Yeah. Yeah, not as, yeah. So- Not, not as gross in your mouth, all that. 34:37 Well, while we're on the topic of dudes being dudes, here's another thing to consider. A vasoconstrictor, it can reduce penis girth, because it can restrict- Oh. Yes. That sounds really nice. And that has been known. 34:47 That has been studied. [laughs] Again, effects may vary based on user. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but something to think about, uh- Like, on chronic use, or, like, an acute effect? Just an acute effect. Okay. 34:57 So, and we should talk about that. So that acute effect, the half-life of it is, is actually very short. Mm. Which then, so again, going back to cigarettes or just the, the f- the effect of nicotine, it's very short. 35:08 It's, like, maybe one to two hours for people. Can be even shorter. I mean, you're, you're gonna feel the effects within 30 minutes. For some people, it's kind of right away. Some people, it's within the first few. 35:18 The intensity kind of builds, and then it drops off. That is, those receptors have now been sort of overloaded. They've done their thing, and they are done. Mm-hmm. You know, kind of thing. So that's why you'll feel that 35:30 buzz, if you will, or that, the, the, the feelings that you get from it, and then it dissipates. Yeah. 35:36 So, um, again, going back to smokers, and you're, you're talking about the rush that they get immediately because they've heated it up. 35:43 It's going through the lungs direct to the, through the airways into the bloodstream. And the amount of nicotine they're getting, this probably speaks to the, to the chain smoking event. 35:52 Like, I'm constantly looking for that, for that rush. You get that peak and crash. That last hit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 35:57 So, um, you know, in terms of how much you should use, I, I'm not here to give people dosages or whatever in terms of what's safe and what isn't safe. I don't think that's really known. 36:05 But if you're, if you're going through a can of, you know, pouches a day You, you might wanna- Yeah... you might wanna have a l- have a look at that. 36:13 Well, one of the articles you sent was kind of with the, the intention of, you know, people weaning off of trying to get off of things like cigarettes. 36:19 And it, it was talking about why Zyns are a little bit w- um, in theory, more successful is because they kind of produce that same kind of ebb and flow that's similar to a cigarette. Yep. 36:29 Where it kind of hits as quickly, lasts about as long. It's more similar versus things like the gum and the pouches and things like that. Yes. Yeah. That doesn't... 36:36 Even though you're getting the nicotine, it doesn't feel the same, where that feels more similar is one of the articles. Yeah. It, yeah, it produces more satisfaction. Yeah. 36:43 So I think that was, yeah, what you're referring to in that article was that, yeah, the Zyns are producing more satisfaction. 36:48 So if somebody is trying to wean off of cigarettes using Zyn or wean off of dip using Zyn, they're gonna get a more similar satisfaction, and therefore they'll stick to it versus the gum or the patches, where they may not get that same feel. 37:01 Yeah. And like, "Ah, fuck it, I'm just gonna go back to cigarettes." [laughs] Yeah. 37:03 I have a question, I have a question regarding that because I don't know, um, with the gum or with the patches, what's the dose like for the gum? 'Cause I know with the, the Zyns or the nicotine pouches- Mm-hmm... 37:15 you can get them in different milligrams. Yeah. Can you do that with gum? I believe so. Yeah, I believe, uh, from what I was reading, it was like two to four milligrams- Mm-hmm... 37:22 for the gum and the patches, whereas the Zyns, I know they come in a three, they come in a six. Not... In an eight as well? Do they make an eight? Uh, not here. Oh, yeah, maybe not here. 37:31 I, I can't get them here if they have them. But then the, the cigarette is, like, 10 to 15. Mm. Yeah. So you're getting a much smaller dosage out of the patch and out of the gum. 37:38 And I think part of the idea of that, too, is to, like, "Okay, let's try to wean you off of such a high nicotine dosage." Yeah. But if it's, if adherence is not happening, then it's not gonna be successful. Right. 37:49 So what- Yeah, we didn't bring up the patches and all the applications either. Yeah. Earlier, you just brought it up. Yeah. Like, nicotine patches have been in use for a very long time. Yeah. 37:57 I, I know there was something with California of, like, restricting with Zyns or the amount- Oh, God. Yeah... or, like, ca- the, what flavor. Yes. Does this have, like, any impact on the FDA stuff? Mm-mm. 38:05 Or, I mean- No, n-... you could see that... that, that, I think that the jury's out, because to be, to be clear, it's, it's not been, quote unquote, "approved," it's been, quote unquote, "authorized"- Okay... 38:14 so by the FDA. Okay. So I think that leaves room for, you know- Yeah... federalism to take over, and people can kind of do what they want. But to your point, like, I can't get a... 38:23 We, we are restricted to flavorless tobacco products- Yeah... here in, in this county and, and most of the state, I believe. I believe it's the whole state. I, I think so. 38:31 Well, that's why Juul went out, right, of business? Correct. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Correct. So you shut California down, and that obviously impacts the, you know, the tobacco industry quite significantly. 38:42 But yeah, like, if you walk into a store here, for people listening that aren't in California, this might sound wild to you, but we cannot get, like, wintergreen, spearmint, you know, those kind of things in, in those products. 38:53 There are stores that sell them. Yeah. That they're not supposed to be, but they do it because it's not being well-regulated. Yeah. But the point is, is you're getting, like, a, a very... 39:02 Like, from a flavor perspective, they have, like, these really low flavored... Uh, it's still g- you're still getting the same nicotine impact. 39:09 Like the, again, we talked about, like, three and six milligram, uh, packs or, uh, packets or, uh, pouches, but you're getting, like... You're not getting the flavors. You can't get the, you can't get those flavors. 39:19 Yeah. And, and that was more, that was more directed at the youth. Yeah, that makes sense. The teenagers. Teenagers. Yeah. 39:25 And that is a concern, I think, like, uh, and, and something worth talking about is, like, what... Who, who, who should this be for? [sighs] I th- I... 39:32 Look, again, I'm not a pa- I'm not your parent, your kid's parent or whatever, but that's something to, to be concerned about and, like, what, what are kids doing out there, and what do they really need, particularly when their brains are still so plastic. 39:43 Yeah. So as you're, as, as they're growing up, I mean, I would say till, you know, s- uh, 25 and under, you know? Do you really need to be on this stuff? Your, your frontal lobe is not fully developed. 39:53 [laughs] But, yeah, it isn't. No, trust me, it was not. [laughs] Anybody that has kids knows that, you know, that, uh, it... 40:00 [laughs] You know, like, m- my 22-year-old daughter's pretty squared away, but I also n- understand she's 22. She's got a lot of development still left. 40:08 My point being there is it's, like, probably not a good idea for the kids, and that's where that, that, those, those laws or restrictions came in because the, all the kids were, were hitting these, these, you know, vape pipes or vape pens, you know, all the time, and it was a massive industry here for a long time, and, and I think it certainly impacted it. 40:27 Uh, I mean, I, I... That same daughter was in high school before that happened. She said the kids were in classrooms doing it, right, during the day, all day. 40:35 Man, yeah, I still, I honestly, I kind of want to even have some conversation with some friends that I know that vape, uh, that, that still vape, and they're just... It's just constant. Yeah. 40:42 They just have it, and they just have to keep hitting, keep hitting. So I'm guessing- Yeah... b- maybe vaping has, like, a pretty short half-life, and that dies off quicker. Same as nicotine. Well, yeah. 40:50 Same as smoking cigarettes probably. And the, and the, and the inhalation, yeah. When you're, whenever you're inhaling it- Yeah... that is gonna hit your brain the fastest. Mm. 40:56 But I, when I was looking into this, 'cause I was actually a little unsure as far as, okay, yeah, the e-cigarette component. Yeah. 41:01 Like, okay, well, yeah, we, we've already separated, you know, the nicotine from the tobacco product, and we've had e- e-cigs, we've had vapes. 41:10 But the v- what I was, from what I was gathering, the vape is actually a misnomer because you're not actually getting a vapor. You're actually getting an aerosol- Correct... 41:19 from those, uh, you know, from those vape, uh, cartridges. So there is particulate matter that you're still inhaling. While you're not getting the tobacco, there's other particulate matter that you're inhaling. 41:31 So it's not this harmless vaporized form of nicotine. Yeah, yeah. There's still other stuff in there. Okay. So that was, uh, enlightening for me 'cause I was, you know, trying to... 41:40 Like, wait, do vapes, are they tobacco derived? Are they non-tobacco derived? Is there tobacco in just, like, this different format essentially? Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's, it's still... 41:48 You're inhaling particulate matter, and there's health, uh, consequences- Consequences... of that. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, what have we left out before we get into, like, application? 41:57 [clears throat] Um, I mean, we haven't talked about, um, like, increased metabolic rate- Yeah... or increased metabolic function. Decrease, decrease in appetite is one of those things that happens. Yep, go ahead. Yeah. 42:08 Uh, so yeah, you have that increase in heart rate that comes with the, uh, uh The ingestion of nicotine, which can lead to increased metabolic rate. 42:18 Um, there was something that I was reading about that it's actually pro-oxidative. So i- it actually could potentially increase oxidation, which we generally think is bad. Yep. But it's in a form... 42:30 Now I'm getting, I'm losing it in my head, but it's in a, a pathway that is actually anti-inflammatory. Um, and in that way, it can actually aid fat burning. 42:39 There was a few thi- I'm getting it mixed up here, but there was a fat burning component, increased lipolysis or increased fat burning came up in what I was reading about. 42:46 But yeah, there, there could be potential, uh, uh, yeah, leaning out effects of, of nicotine. Yeah. Which is kind of similar to caffeine. Again, that was where I was drawing some parallels there. 42:58 Again, yeah, we don't want to get too deep- Yeah... into, like, what could happen- Mm-hmm... and, you know, what are the downstream effects, like ca- causation and correlation type of things. 43:06 But when you go back to, we talked about from a cardiorespiratory perspective, um, there is this up oxygenation- Mm-hmm... and, of, of the hemoglobin, which is your oxygen carrying red blood cells, right, in the system. 43:19 So how does that impact your ability to do lots of different things, right? 43:24 And again, CC already touched on, you know, the studies that have gone on, particularly with endurance athletes, and there's, there's, there's really not a lot of emper- I don't think there's really any consistent empirical evidence that says that it increases, you know, uh, your endurance properties. 43:37 However, you could, based on what we just said in terms of oxygen ca- compa- uh, oxygen carrying capability of your hemoglobin, could there be? We'll probably learn more. 43:47 But to say, like, I do this, I do this before I go out and I run because it helps me, don't, you, there's no science to support that, right? 43:55 Um, it could be I feel my, you know, like, from a cognitive perspective, I feel better, right? Like I've calmed down. I... Again, there's this nociceptor response. 44:04 Those are your pain receptors and, and decreasing the threshold of discomfort or pain. Um, could that be helpful? For sure. 44:11 So, but again, to say that, you know, using nicotine before an endurance event is helping you from a cardiorespiratory perspective, can't say that yet. 44:19 You know, I did come across this, um, a couple of studies, and they were talking about, um, nicotine and the benefits of the performance. 44:26 And one study had individuals, they were, these were very small, um, study sizes, and they were college-aged men. And one study, the population, or, um, they were individuals who have never consumed nicotine. Mm-hmm. 44:42 And then the other study was a small sample size, again, of college-aged men, and they had used nicotine. 44:48 And so when they, um, looked at the performance output, the individuals that, um, were nicotine users, when they consumed nicotine, they were able to go longer. Time to exhaustion was longer. 45:04 But really as far as their performance, as far as like, um- Metrics... the metrics, there was no change. Right. 45:12 And then as far as the individuals that have never used nicotine, I mean, that, that didn't impact them at all from a, a physical performance. 45:19 So the individuals that have used nicotine, it did help them- They had that mental edge potentially- Mm-hmm... but not a physical edge. Exactly. Yeah. So I thought that was kind of interesting. 45:27 Well, that's, it's interesting for me, 'cause when I think through that, so one, I want to say, like, I think the, the point, even though it's not showing, and with that, that's a perfect example of it's not showing actual performance increases. 45:37 But I feel like for me, a lot of endurance training, and obviously you can speak to this, is very- Mental... much the mental game. It's heady. Mm-hmm. It's heady. Yeah. And so I think- Yeah, it's increased motivation. 45:45 Exactly. So if it- Any of those dopamine pathways potentially going. Mm-hmm. Perfect. Yeah. 45:49 So I mean, if it changes, like, that mindset around that, I mean, half the time I get tired of running or something like that is more 'cause I'm bored and don't want to keep running. 45:57 It's not like I'm like, "Oh- Yeah, it's a motivation thing, not a physical thing. Yeah. Exactly. For sure. So I think I could definitely see benefits there. 46:02 Then, and I thought about even, like, my, um, usage of nicotine. 46:06 It's almost like maybe the people who are non-users, it's such, like, this foreign feeling that they almost don't know how to recognize, like, how to be okay with it in some ways. 46:15 That's why I feel like the people who- Uncomfortable. Yeah. It's uncomfortable, right? Yeah. 46:17 It's, it's a sensation that I don't really know what to do with, and I could see that kind of being a component for that study, that, those subjects, so. Yeah. 46:23 One of the other things just on that topic, 'cause we're talking about the, the studies, and they're generally done on male, college male age, or, m- sorry, male college-aged, uh, you know, athletes- Mm-hmm... 46:33 or participants in these studies. Mm-hmm. And, and so look, men and women are different, right? We, hands down, in a lot of different ways. 46:41 But what I, what I found here, and I was just pulling it up 'cause I wasn't exactly sure about this, but, um, women metabolize nicotine faster than men. Hmm. 46:50 And then that's actually further accelerated in those taking estrogen-containing oral contraception, so birth control. Um, however, um, if y- your menstrual cycle doesn't have any effect on it. 47:01 So if you're a female, you should ex- you should expect that you, the effects could be a little bit more intense. Uh, and the half-life of it may be, may, it may, the effects maybe last a little longer. Hmm. So it... 47:14 And then if you're on birth control, again, estrogen-derived birth control or estrogen-dominant, or, um, uh, included birth control of some kind, uh, that could, that could also increase the effects of this. 47:25 So I thought that was interesting too for those ladies out there that are, you know- I didn't come across any studies as far as regarding women. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. 47:32 So this was a very short piece, very deep into the article of some of the findings that they were having. So anyways, uh, one of those articles. Uh, so I thought that was, that was interesting. 47:41 I didn't, I didn't know that. Yeah. So I mean, often, again, we, we look at studies, particularly around exercise, nutrition, things like that, and are often done with males. 47:50 And, uh, you know, there's a lot of animal studies as well, and that's where things get weird with dosages, and animals are different than humans. How much are we giving? 47:58 We ta- we've had this conversation, like, about sucralose and, you know, some of the, uh, the, um, sugar, sugar alternatives and things like that. Like- 48:07 It gets a little wild, like in terms of what they're giving these animals that are effectively killing them or creating cancer, which- Yeah, that doesn't equate to what a human would actually be consuming. Yeah... 48:15 millions of times higher than anything a human could actually consume, period. Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, over a lifetime. So, um, I, anyways, another interesting sort of point, point in there. Okay. Sorry. 48:26 Talked about delivery- Delivery... methods. Was that- Mm-hmm... you know, what was next? Yep. So again, we talked about delivery methods, and again, you could go subcutaneous, like through a patch. 48:35 Um, again, that got really popular in this NRT stuff, nicotine, um, replacement therapy. Uh, the gums and the lozenges. So you, you brought that up. So, and the dosages. 48:47 And, and Steven, I think you said it's like three to four mi- milligrams. Yeah, I saw two to four. Something like two to four- Yeah... and like in the gum. Gum's a little different in terms of delivery system. 48:55 Again, on the, with regard to the human chewing it, obviously that's gonna impact it. 49:00 But my understanding is, and I've never used nicotine gum, um, but, uh, that you, um, you're s- s- sort of supposed to chew it and park it, you know? Yeah. 49:09 Not, not continually chew it, but chew it for a little bit and then just kind of let it like- Kind of activate it and then let it just hang out in your mouth. Yes. 49:15 And almost treat it like a pouch, like almost put it like under the- Yes... under the tongue or something like that? Yes. Yeah. 49:19 So, uh, people listening may have had their own experiences with it, but rather than chewing it like a regular piece of chewing gum where you're constantly working on it, certainly that could impact, uh, if, 49:29 for each individual, that could impact what you're actually getting out of that. And then from the lozenge's perspective, could be the same thing. Hmm. Um, you know, how big is that lozenge? 49:38 How long does it take you to get through it? Um, are you chewing it? You know, are you sucking on it? Are you parking it in there for a while? 49:44 Does it take you an hour to get through it versus, you know, getting through it in, you know, a matter of minutes? I wonder if the pH balance in your mouth has anything to do with how your body- Good question... 49:52 if that goes back to the individuality component. Good question. I, I don't know. I, I, that's not a, yeah, that's not anything I, I could come up with in any of the reading that I did or- Yeah... 50:01 or have done in the past. So. You know how your mouth environment may affect- Mm-hmm... yeah, how... 50:05 I mean, I think like you said, it, in terms of, yeah, are you really hammering on the gum or are you just kind of letting it sit there, hang out? 50:12 Yeah, I think that could depend on, you know, that could create differences in terms of how you're, how you're feeling it. 50:19 Um, I think, yeah, the, the inhalation side of things, I think that's something to, that was kind of what I was thinking about as I was looking into, okay, like, what's next for these nicotine, like, delivery systems? 50:30 Mm-hmm. Like, is there something that's gonna be like truly vaporized, so not, uh, an aerosol, like an e-cigarette. 50:36 So if, uh, this delivery mechanism in the form of pouches is popular, and now like your biohackers and like- Mm-hmm... 50:43 those types of people are starting to get their hands on it, are they gonna wanna find a, a method of inhalation that is safer than an e-cigarette? 50:50 And then you gotta think, okay, well, they're gonna get a, a faster hit there. Does that increase the risk of addiction? 50:56 So I think that, we haven't talked a lot about the, the addiction component, which I think is probably a lot of people's concern because that's what's been drilled into our heads for so long regarding tobacco products is like, it contains evil nicotine that gets its claws in you and you'll never escape. 51:12 Um, from what I was reading, it may not be the nicotine. It's when the nicotine is actually paired with some of these other chemicals that are in cigarettes specifically. 51:21 Like they've done studies where they compared, you know, dose equated nicotine. Typically animal studies was, I believe what I was seeing. 51:29 They've done animal studies, and the addictive properties are increased when the nicotine is delivered along with these other chemicals, these other long, complicated names that are found in cigarettes, versus when the nicotine is isolated, there doesn't seem to be the same addictive tendencies there. 51:46 But I think that that is still, the jury seems to be out there as far as, okay- Yep... if I'm just using nicotine recreationally, free of tobacco, am I gonna get addicted to nicotine? 51:54 I think that's a very valid question to have. 51:57 Yeah, I, I think it is too, and you make a good point there about like, is it the nicotine that you're addicted to, or is it something else that's coming along with the nicotine that's, that's being onboarded with it when you're bringing it in? 52:07 Again, through the cigarettes, which is the, the, the big one that obviously al- it gets talked about and everybody, I think knows that, um, you know, cigarettes are bad, right? I mean- Good. 52:18 [laughs] Yeah, cigarettes are bad. Okay. Uh, and then the chewing tobacco, you know, you're talking about dip. 52:26 Um, we already know about the lesion, the mouth lesions that can occur there, and the cancers that are associated with those. That is, that's pretty much unarguable that that exists. 52:35 So, um, the alternative could be the pouches or the gum or the lozenges or even a patch. Um, one of the things that, that comes up with the addiction piece, and when I think about that, is, is it the chemical? 52:47 Is it the nicotine, right? Is it the chemicals that may be onboard with the nicotine, or is it the dopamine hit that you're addicted to, right? And that feel good, right? 52:54 And the rush that you get, and your inability to cope with, with things or whatever else. 52:58 So, you know, quitting cigarettes could have a lot more to do with the psychosomatic effect of hitting that dopamine button constantly and not knowing how to get it somewhere else. 53:08 Um, and when we're doing feel-good activities, and sometimes foods can do this, exercise can do this, meditation can do this, uh, there's a lot of, there's a lot of studies around all of that stuff where you can i- i- increase or enhance your dopamine response to things without ingesting, you know, outside, you know, things like nicotine or anything else for that matter. 53:27 So again, like with this addiction problem and, and how to solve it, uh, it's not, there's not a formula for this. 53:34 Like some might argue that, you know, uh, NRT clinics or whatever that are really working for it, they probably have more like groups of people that they can kind of assess who's a candidate for this type of therapy versus, or this, this type of application of therapy versus this type of application of therapy, which happens across the board with anything, with any kind of treatment to anything. 53:54 Not everybody responds the same to everything. So, "Oh, I tried the patches and it doesn't work." Well, you know, uh, what's the, the movie Scrooge? Did you guys ever see that? 54:05 Where Bill Murray, where they, the, the guy comes out behind the, from behind the, the set With this little mouse in his hand, and he says, "I can't get the, the antlers to stay on the mouse." 54:14 They were trying to do this thing. He goes, "Well, have you tried staples?" [laughs] Right? So the point is, is like, have you tried something else? Yeah. Yeah. Right? What else have you done? Yeah. 54:22 There are other, there are other applications of this. 54:24 Well, and I think about it, too, so, you know, I, kinda what you're saying about it being taught as, like, something that gets your claws in you, and that's, like, the, the whole persona around it. 54:32 You know, there's other substances, like certain, like, let's say, like, like painkillers or even things like alcohol, where your body, if you're a chronic user and you are addicted to that, your body almost starts to run on that. 54:41 There's a physical dependence. There's a physical dependency, right? Yeah. So if you for, w- 100 to zero, something like that, that could actually, like, kill that individual. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 54:48 So i- is there not those same components, or is that still, like- Yeah... in unknown- Good question... with nicotine, you know? I think that's, yeah, I think that's TBD as far as- Yeah... 54:55 yeah, like, is there- Good question... a physical dependence that's formed? Yes. Like I said, it seems to be kind of similar, at least from what I was gathering in my, uh, Dr. Google, um, with caffeine. 55:05 Like, you know, is there a physical dependence on caffeine? I have heard some people say that when they're, when they stop caffeine, they do have, like, a physical withdrawal. Yeah. Yeah. Nausea. 55:15 That's usually, that's usually the criteria. Yeah. Like, when you try to withdraw, is there physical symptoms? Yeah. 55:21 Um, and as far as the nicotine goes, you know, uh, when people usually quit cigarettes and things like that, you hear about, like, the irabili- irritability. 55:29 You hear about, uh, a lack of m- you know, a low mood, lack of motivation. You know, is that a, is that a, a mental, emotional, uh, withdrawal, or is that a physical withdrawal? It could be a little bit of both. Both. 55:42 Yeah. So I think, yeah, that's, I, it seems like, yeah, the jury is still out there as far as, like, yeah, is this, does this create physical dependence? Yeah. Um, or is it just a mental thing? 55:52 Yeah, and then what happens with that mental thing versus physical thing when it, in terms of behaviors- Yeah... and what drives behaviors? 55:58 Like, if you're feeling anxious, you know, um, chemically or just, again, there's a psychosomatic response to whatever this is, you know. And again, I, I don't know what it is. 56:07 I don't, again, I don't think a lot of people have it figured out. What do you do? What do you do when you feel stressed, right? Yeah. Do you over-exercise? Do you stop eating? Do you eat more, right? 56:18 Do you engage in some other activity or behavior that could be construed as unhealthy or healthy, right? Tho- those kind of things, I think. You've gotta replace something, right? Yeah. 56:28 And that's generally, people are usually replacing, at least at the beginning of their journey, are often replacing one addictive behavior with another. Mm-hmm. So, you know, what, what are those things? 56:38 Again, it's based on individuals and, you know, their, their level and how the, how intense those things are for them and how it's impacting their life. I don't know. But so yeah, certainly TBD, I think. 56:47 Well, that, that just made me kind of think of, like, a personal anecdote from my, my personal use of chewing tobacco. I definitely fell into the, like, the cliche baseball player, like, using dip. 56:58 But I didn't actually pref- I didn't really like using it while I was playing. 57:02 When I would find myself using it more often, especially as I got later into my career and I was just pitching, and when you're a pitcher, you throw, you run, and then you do what is called shag. 57:13 So you stand in the outfield while the position players are hitting, and you run around and catch the balls and throw them back, and you're a ball collector, basically. As you can imagine, that gets boring. 57:22 Um, so that would be, that was prime dip time. That was, like, we, we made, like, a tea party out of it, essentially. Like, "All right, we're gonna go shag. 57:29 I got one for you and one for you and one for you, and now just, like, let's stand out here and bullshit." Yeah, yeah. 57:34 Um, so it was a matter of, uh, the boredom versus I wasn't throwing a dip in because I wanted to increase my performance. I actually hated pitching with a dip in. It made me feel weird. Yeah. It made me feel anxious. 57:46 Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes I could do it, like, in practice, but in a game, I was never using it while I was playing. Yeah. 57:52 But when I was just bored at practice or, like, bored on the bus going somewhere, that would be when it would be happening. So that was my boredom coping mechanism. Yeah, yeah. 58:00 Yeah, I think there's, uh, something else to be said here, too, and that is, you know, my, my friends, my friends know me to be a, a cigar snob. Uh, something that I enjoy and partake in. 58:08 And for a long time, for, for several years, uh, let's just say I'll s- I'll self-diagnose as having a pretty nasty habit. Like, there was, there was a time there where it was two a day, right? For, for quite some time. 58:19 People are like, "What the fuck?" Right? Two a day. It's expensive, too, by the way, if you're a cigar snob. [laughs] Yeah. 58:25 If you, if, if you ever get into that, just be aware you're going down a, you're going down a slippery slope there. Um, I haven't smoked cigars in months. I did, we were just, we just came back from SHOT Show. 58:36 I caught up on months' worth of cigar smoking while I was there with my friends- [laughs]... in Vegas, where you can smoke everywhere and everybody's kind of doing that. 58:42 But my point in, in bringing that up was, for me, it was more of a ritual. And, and, and, and that could be a thing, too, in terms of changing your ritual or adjusting your rituals. 58:51 And mine was, at the end of the day, I would go out and walk the dog. 58:55 That was my downtime to re-re- or was it, sorry, that was my time to downregulate, maybe strap on a podcast and try and pull in some information, some educational information or even entertainment, but mostly educational. 59:07 I would throw on podcasts about all kinds of stuff, with finance, leadership, uh, um, learning about some n- some industry that I had never heard of or, or something like that and trying to, you know, take it in, and I would smoke while I would do that. 59:20 Um, I haven't done that in months. Um, and right about the time I started using nicotine pouches. Mm. So interestingly, I cannot draw, you know, like, is that the causation for me not to do that? 59:31 But I have to tell you, like, I, it wasn't something that was hard for me to do. I didn't even think about it. I just stopped doing it. Um, and so I just, again, I, I bring that up. There, there's a ritual to things. 59:42 Sometimes that ritual could be drinking. Sometimes it could be something else. You know, people have their morning rituals and the things they do, and- Long drives... whatever it is. Coffee. 59:50 Like, that could be, that could be part of it, too, and replacing that or, you know, versus just quitting it. 59:55 Um, there's quitting, and then there's, there's q- you know, just not doing it at all, and then there's replacing it with something, and this might be part, this could be a, you know, something that somebody tries to, to replace that ritual when, you know, like, every time I go out and drink, and I was talk- we were talking to somebody the other day, and he was, I asked him, well, I was asking him about, uh- Caffeine or whatever. 1:00:14 Did you need caffeine? 'Cause we had some on board. And, uh, we were talking about smoke. Somehow smoking came up. He's like, "Nah, I don't smoke." 1:00:21 He goes, "Except when I was in the Marine Corps, [laughs] seemed every time we'd go out and drink, somehow I would wind up with a pack of cigarettes in my pocket at the end of the night, and it was more of kind of a ritual thing." 1:00:30 Mm. It's just- Yeah... other people were doing it. It's kind of what we did. We sat around, everybody calms down. They're all getting their dopamine hit. 1:00:37 They're sitting around chatting or whatever, and that's just kind of what, what happens. So there's things to be considered there. Is this an addiction? Is it a ritual? 1:00:44 You know, what, what are you feeling in, in effects there? I, I don't wanna go too deep in that rabbit hole, but that's just my personal anecdote to, to, to a couple things. 1:00:50 And I gotta tell you, I feel better about not smoking as many cigars, right? Mm. Uh, now it's on actually maybe a couple a month, maybe. I mean, I've gone six weeks or so without any. 1:01:04 And then again, like I said, we were in Las Vegas, we were at SHOT Show, a huge event. Everybody's doing it and, and it's a fun thing, and I enjoy them. Yeah. 1:01:10 Um, but it's not, I'm not enjoying them every day like I did before. So cigar smoking is different than cigarette smoking for several different reasons, and the health risks are actually quite different. 1:01:22 Um, I did get into it after a while. I kind of dipped into like how much damage am I potentially doing to myself? 1:01:28 And when you look at the cigar process or the cigar making process, the growing of the leaf, depending on where you're getting it from, getting those from, the growing of the leaves, the processing of them, basically from farm to mouth, farm to table kind of thing, it's way, [laughs] it's way different than cigarettes, right? 1:01:43 And so you're probably not being exposed to all the additional chemicals that come along with the, with the tobacco. And in terms of the inhalation that you're doing, 1:01:53 I don't know too many people that are directly inhaling cigar smoke from the tobacco leaf right into their lungs, right? It's not- Yeah. 1:02:00 You are certainly inhaling it through your nose, and you're being around the smoke, but it is probably a different intensity level in terms of volume and intensity. So, [inhales] uh, okay, how about application? 1:02:10 Like, where, where, where could this, this show up? Just like, where could it be good? 1:02:13 We talked about addiction, uh, maybe trying to get off of cigarettes or, you know, your, your tobacco, whether it's snuff or snus or whatever you're using there. Could be an application there. 1:02:22 Um, again, results vary by user, uh, based on the individual. So we, we kind of hit that quite a bit. One of the things I think about, and, and again, I mentioned this sitting down early in the conversation was, 1:02:34 again, when you think about what Steven walked through, what we've talked about just in terms of the neurocognitive stuff, where could this be helpful for you, you know? 1:02:41 Um, [laughs] this stuff got really big here in the Silicon Valley. Um, interestingly, what was really big before that and still exists is microdosing of mushrooms, um, which produces... 1:02:54 W- we've sat, Steven and I have sat and talked ad nauseam, and we've added it into other podcasts about nootropics and adaptogens, and mushrooms are part of that thing. 1:03:02 But this would be like more of the medicinal type mushroom that people are onboarding in these tech businesses to stay focused, to have a high level of focus, right? 1:03:10 Sitting in front of their computers, doing whatever they're doing. 1:03:13 Um, engineers, people that are trying to be creative or whatever, and the impacts that they get and feel, and they're, there's, they're, they're notable, right? Again, these are self-reported things. 1:03:22 These are not, these are subjective things that can't necessarily be measured objectively in terms of what they're feeling. But from a work output perspective, the, they're, they're getting a result. 1:03:32 Like, they're making more money. They're being more creative. They're getting some type of feedback that says, "This is good." And that was actually very popular here for a while. 1:03:39 I don't know how popular it is anymore, but I was kind of, like I was kind of stunned to find that out. I was like, "Gee, these computer nerds are dosing at work?" Like, okay. [laughs] All right. 1:03:48 You mean like tripping out? No, no, no. Yeah. Like microdosing. Yeah. So there's that. Um, but, uh, the, the nicotine pouches have become very popular here, particularly in that world. 1:03:59 And so when I think about like where it, where I, I get, wh- where, where I utilize them, and, and when I say that, I mean like from a, a very deliberate kind of way. 1:04:10 If I'm getting on a conference call with somebody to do, like an assessment or get into, like I, you know, I'm involved in a lot of things, and we do a lot of video chats where we're, we're working through business planning or, or whatever else, that's a time where I wanna be focused and sharp. 1:04:23 And I can tell you, I, it's almost like we talk about like the, the nootropic effects of some of these, these other supplements and, and naturally derived substances that are out there. You feel more switched on, right? 1:04:35 And if that means if being more switched on could impact your, uh, capability and productivity in the job that you have or the thing that you do, that could be a, uh, an application. 1:04:46 Like you're trying to learn something new, like reading something new or studying something new or working on a project that, that, that really, uh, needs your very close attention, again, in terms of creative, math. 1:04:59 You know, what- whatever the thing is, I, it could definitely be... [laughs] Yeah. Mm. If you're, if you're just dumb at math, I'm not sure it's gonna help you. [laughs] See, so I said I'm not that kind of Asian. 1:05:08 [laughs] She doesn't, she doesn't do math too good. Yeah, no. Um, but that could be, that could be a, a, a, a time and a place for that. Like people use, again, microdosing mushrooms or even Adderall. 1:05:22 Um- That's where my, my mind was going- Yeah... as far as like the intense focus for an extended period of time. And caffeine as well. 1:05:28 I mean, it, of everything that you were describing sounded like things that people use caffeine for as well. 100%. I need to focus, I need to learn, I need to study. 1:05:34 Let me make sure I got that coffee on board or whatever caffeine. So when you do something like that, um, when you, you know, you put your nicotine pouches in before you get on for a meeting- Mm-hmm... 1:05:43 um, do you have a crash with it at all? No, that's the thing. So it just kind of wears off, right? And, and you'll know. You'll, you'll notice a little bit of that. 1:05:51 There's, again, the half-life on it is generally fairly short. Mm-hmm. One to two hours is what they say for people. But I, I, I gotta tell you, at times, like I'm like 45 minutes in, and I'm like, "Yeah, that's gone." 1:06:02 This one's done. How do you know? Yeah. Toss it. What's that? How do you know it's done? You, you, there's a, 1:06:07 I don't wanna say it's palpable, but again, with consistency, you know when you're kind of switched on and switched off. Uh, and so I just, I j- I just can tell. I just know. Like- Maybe like a leveling off of- Yeah. 1:06:18 It's, it's- Yeah... stuff, but it's not a crash. It's not like, "Oh, I need to recharge the batteries. Oh, there's two more in my mouth," or something like that. [laughs] No, it's not like that at all. 1:06:26 Um, I, it's, it's more like I think the reminder, if you've, if you've left them in for that long, let's say they're in for an hour and a half- Mm... 1:06:34 you recognize maybe you're getting a little flavor out of the flavored ones or whatever, but you're recognizing you're not getting the impacts, you're not feeling the impacts that you were feeling in the first 15 minutes. 1:06:44 Mm. Um, there is a little bit of a, kind of a rush right at the beginning, and then there's a dissipation, and then half hour, 45 minutes, hour, done, right? 1:06:52 So going back to, like, Adderall or something like that, or even mushrooms- Mm... which are a little tougher to dose because the what's it in the mushroom- Mm-hmm... 1:07:01 uh, is not gonna be the same from mushroom to mushroom, so it's very hard to measure and control. 1:07:06 Um, on the pharmaceutical side, when you're taking a pharmaceutical drug like Adderall, that is one of those things that once it's in there, it's in there. 1:07:13 It ain't coming out, and again, people can be affected differently, and that could be a good thing or a bad thing. 1:07:17 Some of it might last longer depending on your dosage and how your body responds to it, but this is much more controllable in terms of the knowns that we have. Again, the brain can only... 1:07:26 Well, the, the receptors are only, um, can only be stimulated for so long, and then again, th- because of the half-life of the nicotine in and of itself or the chemicals, uh, uh, with the chemical within the nicotine and how that, that interaction happens, so it kinda wears off. 1:07:39 And it's not like a, there's no crash to it. There's definitely a buildup. There's no crash. So, I mean, that's one app- those are a couple applications that you might think about. 1:07:48 You mentioned, like, the fine motor skills, right? And learning a new skill. So for my shooters out there- Yeah, we had to, we gotta cover that. We're definitely covering that because a lot of my friends are shooters. 1:07:57 I thought you were gonna say your crot- crochet club. [laughs] I don't know. [laughs] You know what I think about that? I think about a bunch of old ladies- Yeah. [laughs]... 1:08:04 bunch of old ladies sitting around crocheting, and they're like- Just zooming on the ends Swinging blankets. 1:08:07 [laughs] They're, they're doing a blanket, a blanket in a 30-minute, it's crochet, I don't know, something like that. Hammering out quilts, yeah. Maybe. Uh- [laughs]... maybe. Uh, [laughs] no, I, I don't know. 1:08:16 But, um, so for my shooters out there, the place I think about this is, like, um, shooting in and of itself or practicing shooting, like the fundamentals of shooting, and I'm not including, like, um, intense movement, like if you're running around on the range or, like, doing a, um, sort of, sort of like a stage. 1:08:33 But even here it might work if you're in competition shooting. There may be application here because it's so short. You're not really physically exerting yourself. 1:08:41 But in practice, and for those shooters, we'll use the term dry fire, very familiar term, where you're using an unloaded, an unloaded firearm, right? 1:08:49 Where, and you're practicing the d- the fundamental skills, whether it's your draw, your presentation, your grip, finding your sights, um, being target-focused, being, you know, practicing that trigger control. 1:09:01 You're practicing certain drills or, uh, exercises that you may be doing in your basement or your garage or wherever you're doing this. 1:09:08 Um, this, and so when you think about the intense focus, the relaxation, like anybody that's ever done anything like this, like shooting in general, but does it, like, for competition or whatever they take- Mm... 1:09:20 you gotta be relaxed. 1:09:21 Going in with a bunch of tension is not good because it will translate into, you know, basically the, the, the firearm's a tool or an extension of you, and whatever your body does and whatever f- whatever inputs you put in that gun is gonna come out on paper, the target right in front of you. 1:09:35 So if you're sitting... If, if you're thinking about this, like in your dry fire practice, this could be a really strong application. I do it myself, right? 1:09:43 Um, because I am trying to practice a very specific skill which requires fine motor movement in a l- in a lot of ways. You know, uh, they're... 1:09:52 [laughs] This will probably get flamed on the internet, you know, in terms of, like, you know, h- how much I'm... It's too science-y, bro, you know, or whatever. 1:09:59 But when you t- when you're thinking about the things that you have to apply into a, a firearm in order to get it to do what you want to do, all those things are included. 1:10:05 And rela- and relaxing, and I don't mean, like, feeling dopey and lazy, I just mean this calming effect that happens so that you c- and then with the, uh, effects of the focus, really good application there for that, right? 1:10:19 I, I'm not suggesting you go out on [laughs], you know, if you're a, somebody that carries for a living, right, and y- you're going out and like, "I gotta keep zenned up all day long so I'm ready to go-" [laughs] Stay ready. 1:10:28 "... when it comes." I'm not saying... Yeah, stay ready. 1:10:30 [laughs] But I'm talking about in learning and applying and, and applying the skills, uh, that, that, you know, are so important to be, uh, fast and accurate, which are, you know, two of the, the things that 1:10:41 ev- most shooters are trying to achieve. What a great application for that. 1:10:45 So, um, so dudes, my friends that are listening to me now, now I've just justified for you why it's okay for you to spend five and a half, six and a half bucks on a can of Zyn every day. [laughs] Right? Or whatever. 1:10:56 [laughs] Or, and then go dry fire practice, so now you can tell your wife Scott said so. Scott said so. It's, it's approved. Do that versus drinking and doing that. [laughs] 100%. 1:11:03 I mean, that's the worst thing you could do. First off, firearms and alcohol never. Mm-hmm. Ever. Um, but at the same time, like, no, that exac- that's exactly the opposite thing you wanna be doing- Yeah... 1:11:12 if you're trying to practice and refine a skill set. Mm-hmm. Right? That, that, that has, a- all the things we've talked about, just 180 that and that's what you get from alcohol, right? 1:11:22 The other, the other interesting thing about this with the, um, so when we're going back to the dopamine effect, and Steven's talked about this one before with nicotine, is it actually reduces GABA. 1:11:31 You wanna talk about GABA real quick? Uh, yeah. I believe, what was it? Was it... I think it was alcohol that I've talked about GABA before. Yeah, yeah. With, uh, with alcohol- Yeah... 1:11:37 and its relationship to GABA, and we can talk about nicotine and its relationship with GABA. So I mean, GABA is considered a, an inhibitory neurotransmitter, so it is a, a, a calming neurotransmitter. And when you... 1:11:49 Well, there's a, there's a relationship between GABA and glutamate, so I believe that's where you're- Mm... 1:11:54 where we're heading as far as when I consume alcohol, my GABA, uh, GABA production or GABA release in the brain is going to increase exponentially. 1:12:03 So you get this nice calming effect, but what happens is you get, you drop below baseline, and then you have this rebound effect with glutamate that is an excitatory neurotransmitter. 1:12:15 So your body's like, "Oh, we're, like, in sedation mode thanks to this GABA. Now we need to upregulate Glutamate, which if you've heard of hangxiety, that is where that comes from. 1:12:25 It's this glutamate rebound as your body is trying to rebalance from this overdose of GABA that it got. So it overshoots or rebounds to the point that you have anxiety from the alcohol that you consumed the night before. 1:12:38 So you said that nicotine has a, it decreases- Down, down- Yeah, yeah... downregulation. Yeah... down regulates GABA- Yeah... which would then, yeah, potentially lead to an increase in glutamate and an increase in focus. 1:12:47 You got it. And, and that fine motor control. 1:12:50 But along the fine motor control, just to sneak this in here, 'cause I think it's, it's important as far as, uh, the clinical, uh, applications of nicotine, is because of that potential improvement in fine motor control, there have been studies looking at nicotine and Parkinson's. 1:13:07 Mm-hmm. And nicotine actually reducing the tremors that people experience due to Parkinson's. 1:13:13 So if you think about that, and again, this might be more, [laughs] more justification for your, uh, can a Zyn a day, if nicotine is being used to reduce the massive tremors that people get from Parkinson's disease, imagine how it might be able to steady your hand. 1:13:29 Right. Yeah. And, and so many things. So there's probably... We could come up with a million examples. I just wanted to bring up a, bring up a few. 1:13:35 Um, but going back to, like, the workout piece and where it may or may not help, again, 1:13:40 you're not gonna go out there and instantly lift, you know, 100 more pounds on your bench press, or, you know, 50 more kilos on your, on your, uh, on your snatch. 1:13:50 Uh, but the, the point there being is w- what we talked about is that focus that you get maybe going into it. Again, you're trying to down regulate a little bit from a long day at work. 1:13:59 Um, you got that hour commute, you know, to the... Or, you know, that half hour or that hour between the time you get off work to the time you, you strap on your, your workout shoes and you hit the floor. 1:14:09 Hey, maybe, maybe that, maybe it's a good idea. You'd have to experiment with it and find out for yourself because the half-life, again, is gonna be short enough to where 1:14:18 it, it's, it's out of your system to s- to, uh, so to speak, by the time you're hitting the workout floor in that amount of time. 1:14:23 I'm not suggesting you run around with Zyns in your mouth while you're snatching and cleaning and jerking or, or w- or whatever. You wanna do that, go ahead. That's up to you. 1:14:30 Um, but remember what we said about vasoconstriction, right? And if you're trying to, uh... 1:14:35 But also there's this thing with the blood carrying capacity of the hemoglobin that could be enhanced, you know, when you, when you're going into this. And how do you leverage that? I don't know. 1:14:43 I don't wanna say 'cause I, I have no freaking idea. 1:14:46 I wouldn't, I wouldn't go there and say it could be an org- Basically, most of the studies, almost all the studies that I read, are there's insufficient evidence to say that nicotine is an ergogenic aid in any way. 1:14:58 Mm-hmm. But when you think about all the things that we brought to the table, could it help you, um, with regard to your output or your, your mental clarity focus in terms... 1:15:07 And you mentioned the word earlier, CC, and that was intention, in getting out there in terms of, like, "Okay, I was able to kind of clear my head, get focused on the thing that's in front of me today, and get after it." 1:15:17 Maybe. Mm. Maybe. So anyways, that's a lot on nicotine. Mm-hmm. I learned a lot in, in prepping for this. Yeah. Way more than I already knew. I learned a ton from you guys today. Those were g- really great questions. 1:15:26 Any, any other questions before we stop? I don't think so. I don't think so. I think I... Yeah. All right. So no for the kids, yes for the mental clarity and focus. 1:15:35 Uh, certainly yes in terms of experimenting with it if you're looking to maybe get away from cigarettes or chew or dip. Um, absolutely for all the negative things that come along with that. 1:15:46 Um, uh, for your finances, maybe not such a great idea. Uh, but, uh, that's not for me to say. Go out, experiment with it. Say, start with a load, like we do every- anything else. 1:15:55 You know, if you're gonna go out and do it, this would be the recommendation. Start with a low dose. Um, you know, don't do it while you're at... 1:16:01 Don't start that while you're at work [laughs] or when you're s- you know, you have to do anything that's kind of important in life. Maybe just, you know, on a, on a weekend or a Saturday- Doing some yard work... 1:16:09 when you're sitting at home. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Doing your yard work or something. Sitting around, you can, you can try it. 1:16:13 Understand that, like what Ryan said, if you're highly sensitive to things in general, uh, yeah, there could be a f- a f- a feeling of nauseousness, um, kind of headiness, a buzz. 1:16:24 If you don't like that feeling at all, I would say don't do it. Uh, don't even try. Uh, but there's ways to, you know, kind of, kind of do it. 1:16:30 You can get 'em, you know, you can get these things at most of your, you know, you know, liquor stores, even grocery stores, things like that. You can try 'em out. 1:16:37 Uh, but anyways, if there's any questions that people have on that or, or things they wanna share after listening to this, please hit us, like, in the DMs or whatever. 1:16:43 I'm always interested in learning how people, you know, use this stuff, and, uh, maybe we'll talk about it again sometime. [rock music] Thank you for tuning into this episode of Iron Sights. 1:16:53 If you enjoyed our conversation, you can support our mission by hitting the subscribe button, leaving a review, and sharing the podcast with a friend. I'll see you on the next episode.
