Transcript 0:00 This episode is all about the truth behind muscle loss and doing cardio. These episodes, as always, are brought to you by Red Dot Fitness training products and programs. Don't be afraid to visit us at rdftrainonline.com. 0:16 When you get there, there's a couple different ways you can contact us if you have questions. You can reach directly out to us on our contact page via email, and we'll get right back. 0:25 Or feel free to pick up the phone, dial us up directly. One of our staff members, maybe it's Jeff, Cece, or myself, will be here to answer the phone, get all your questions answered. So remember, rdftrainonline.com. 0:35 That's rdftrainonline.com. [rock music] Welcome to Iron Sights. 0:45 This podcast candidly seeks to create opportunities and deliver impact by sharing the experiences and wisdom of successful entrepreneurs and thought leaders who unapologetically aim to win in health, fitness, business, and life. 0:59 I'm your host, Scott Howell. Welcome to old school meets new school, tradition meets innovation, and imperfection meets excellence. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the show. 1:09 There's this huge myth that doing cardio is gonna make you burn up your muscle. You're gonna lose muscle- Mm-hmm... when you do cardio. Like, you're gonna eat it up. It is going to fuel your cardio session. Yeah. 1:19 Well, I mean, I, I get the fear of losing, like, maybe all the muscle or losing some of the muscle you put so much work into maintaining. Oh, yeah. All the eating, all the lifting. Man, yeah. 1:29 Yeah, especially if you're like a har- what they call like a hard gainer. Oh, yeah. You know? Somebody that has a little bit tougher time. I mean, we can t- we can talk about that. 1:35 I mean, so- I've been there, still there. [laughs] Yeah. I, I get it. I wasn't that guy. Like, I, I wasn't, so I- Yeah... I know. But at the same time, like, um, I... 1:43 Yeah, I just wasn't that guy that had a hard time building muscle. Like, and part of it was is I, I had no problem fucking eating, ever. [laughs] Um, I, I... Eat it till you take it away. That is awesome. 1:53 And then the next part of it was is, like, I loved to lift heavy. Mm-hmm. And I had access, you know, and some, I guess, like, guidance to be able to do that. So that just always kind of sort of came easy for me. 2:05 But this whole concept or this thought process of by, well, doing cardio, you're gonna eat up your muscle. Mm-hmm. You know, just stop doing that. If you want to put on muscle, then you don't, you don't wanna do cardio. 2:16 Yeah. Where did this even come from? I mean, like, I, I don't get it. Yeah, I don't know. I was thinking about that myself. I'm like, gosh. I mean, I've heard it. Yeah. But when did I hear it? 2:27 So- And where did it come from? I- But I can tell you where, like, I think I picked it up. Mm-hmm. And, um, there's, like, no education there. 2:36 I think it was just back in the day, I remember seeing marathon runners and cross country athletes and, in high school, and they were always super skinny. Yeah. And they didn't have any muscle. 2:47 And so- So you're drawing the association? I, yeah, I think that's probably where- That switch, switch training, baby... it might've come from for me initially. Yeah. 2:53 Yeah, see, w- so it's been demonized to a certain extent 'cause like, I, I don't wanna look like that. Exactly. Right? So that, there, you're basically, it's correlation, it's causation. Yeah. 3:02 That person's probably, that person very- Never lifted weights, by the way. Yeah, and- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... just, you know, genetically, you know, from a, from a build perspective- Mm. 3:10 They're just a, they're a long, lanky- They're endurance built. Yeah. Yeah. They're built to run long distances. Uh, that's just the way they're built. 3:16 But yeah, clearly the running that they're doing is causing them to look that way- Absolutely... versus now they're taking advantage of the build that they have, if you wanna be... 3:24 Maybe they're being smarter than the rest of us. Maybe they had it figured out before us. [laughs] Um, yeah. It's funny that you talk about, like, how they look. 3:31 'Cause if you take, like, a bodybuilder of the same age, women, runner, same age, woman, the runner is gonna look more oxidative, like, more broken down. 3:42 They're gonna have- Depending, are you talking about a long-distance runner or are you talking about sprinter? No, not a sprinter. Yeah, you're, it's gonna look- Sprinters are like boom. No, you- I like that, though. 3:49 I thank you. So you, just to clarify, 'cause you, you said very specifically, like, cross country- Yeah... and marathon runners. Or like, so, so like long distance- Mm-hmm... cons- consistently stepping. 3:58 'Cause as we see the sprinters, they just, they look phenomenal, right? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They, they, they have the, the, the, uh, fast twitch muscle fibers activated and, and all of that. 4:06 But what we're looking at, if you were just to look at the same person doing bodybuilding, doing this, and now people have different genetical profiles, but, um, the person that's doing the resistance training is going to look more youthful. 4:18 Mm-hmm. Generally speaking. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right? 'Cause it's more of an anabolic, whereas when we look at cardio, it is catabolic. It breaks down. Oxidative. It takes a- right? It takes away. 4:27 It, it- So- I mean, it's gonna, yeah, it's going to, quote, unquote, sorry, quote, unquote, age you. Exactly. Now, that's not me saying cardio is bad. It is great for you. Yeah. 4:36 I just wanna- Yeah, but, but, but you, you are drawing some comp- compare and contrasts- Okay... or like, uh- We're, we're gonna, some people look at, like, marathon runners- Correlation causation... look sickly, right? 4:43 Yeah, yeah. It, it, I mean, bottom line is you have to be very efficient. So you don't wanna be carrying around a lot of muscle mass, uh, over time. There's a power to weight ratio there. Yes. Right? 4:53 And obviously the more you weigh, the more power you have to create or, uh, the, the person that can create the same amount of power but weighs 10 pounds less [laughs] is going to- All day... be more efficient. Win. Yep. 5:03 And why wouldn't you wanna win? Why wouldn't, why wouldn't you do that? Yeah. So, uh, there's that, that balance of things there. 5:07 But it's interesting, uh, you kind of opened up or a minute ago we were talking about, like, the definition of cardio literally talks about, um, we're not burning muscle and nowhere in the definition of cardio- Yeah... 5:17 does it say we're burning muscle for fuel. So, so yeah. So I'll go over it again. And even proteins for fuel, whi- which we'll do. It- Mm-hmm. Yes. 5:23 Which, which we'll do, but it's, it's not w- the energy system doesn't want to do that. So when we look at anaerobic, when we're talking about cardio, uh, we have oxygen cellularly- Mm-hmm... 5:35 that is allowed now to burn fat as a fuel source. Yeah. So the, so you'll hear this term say, "Hey, uh, fat burns- At 130, 130, yeah... in the flame of oxygen and carbohydrate," right? Yeah. It, it, no, exactly. Yeah. 5:48 That is great. Um- And then that's not just a, a set in stone rule, right? 5:55 As I increase and decrease the amount of oxygen cellularly, I start going into glycolysis, and I have to use glycogen, and this is where we start getting into maybe breaking down muscle or going back and forth. 6:05 We're moving through the energy systems. Always. Yeah. And it's not just one set or the other. Mm-hmm. If someone's like, "Oh, I was at 1:30 in my fat burning zone," like, dude, you weren't. 6:13 That's [laughs] Your body was switching back and forth. It's v- it, it's just not doing one energy source or one energy system. System. Yeah. Right? 6:20 So it's interesting that they get so fixated on, "Well, I need to be in my fat burning zone," and at no point, like, "I did my cardio so, and I got in my fat burning zone today," um, and at the same time they're worried about losing muscle. 6:31 Well, if you're burning fat, why the fuck you worried- Right... about your muscle? Exactly. 6:34 So I, a- again, it's been demonized to a certain extent, and, you know, I think a lot of it stems from the bodybuilding community, right? When we're looking to build, you know, constantly build muscle and mass- Mm-hmm. 6:47 Yeah... uh, aesthetically to be able to step on stage. I mean, the, the industry's just driven that kind of, kind of language. It didn't used to always be like that. I know. 6:54 And I think it's changing a little bit, to be fair. You are right. And if you guys think about it, like, 7:00 if, if you've seen any bodybuilder train or coming into a show, they're doing a lot of cardio, and these guys are presenting muscle on stage. Mm-hmm. Right. They, they may or may not be doing... 7:11 Well, the, the, the term- The, uh-... a lot is relative, right? But you, you, you get what I'm- A lot for them... you get what I'm saying, right? Yeah. 7:15 Like, some of these guys are doing an hour out the gate, which isn't, [laughs] not the way to go. But yet they are trying to maintain and show muscle on stage. Right. Right? 7:26 Which s- which shows that at some point cardio is burning more fat than muscle. It's just how are we implicating it? Yeah. 7:34 So that's the, I think that's the real question, and that's w- what, what people need to wrap their head around is, is cardio's not gonna make you lose muscle. What are the things that are going to cause, uh, a 7:47 deterioration of your muscle, right? Mm-hmm. And when I say that, I just mean a devolumization- Mm-hmm... a robbing of- Yep... nutrients to ultimately to where you are now decreasing muscle mass, right? 7:59 What are the things that are gonna create that? Atrophy. [laughs] A- yeah, atrophy. Yeah. Right? So what, what are the things that are gonna do that? Yeah. Um, well, I mean, let's list them. 8:09 Uh, so some of the basic things would be like, well, if I'm not training the muscle- Yes... if not stimulating- It's resting... the muscle to grow- Mm-hmm... right, I'm not sending the proper signals- Mm-hmm... 8:18 it's gonna have no reason to do the other thing, which is to hypertrophy, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. To grow or to volumize. Mm-hmm. So it's gonna become efficient. 8:26 It's just gonna kinda go back to where it was or whatever, and anybody that's ever broke their arm or their leg, throw a cast on that thing. Uh, I've done it several times in my life. 8:33 Uh, you, you put that cast, you know, from your foot to your knee. Take the thing off, and you got the little baby calf there. Dude. Right? It's just gone, right? It's atrophied. Yeah. It hasn't had to work. Yep. Mm-hmm. 8:42 So it's adapted, and that's- Mm-hmm... what you're left with. But how long does it take to get that back, you know, once you're, once that cast- Good old satellite cells, baby... right. 8:50 So the, so the body will, will respond to that- Yeah... once you start sending the signaling in. Yeah. But it's been casted literally. Exactly. Mm-hmm. So it hasn't had to work through- And movement, yeah... 8:57 dorsiflexion and, and, um, [laughs] uh- Plantar flexion... plantar flexion. So that's a good, that's a good example. So you, we haven't stimulated it properly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Right? 9:05 That's why muscle may, again- Mm-hmm... devolumize and atrophy. I think another thing, too, is the bodybuilding community or just community in general looked at 9:16 how much am I burning, and this is when metrics and the bio, uh- Biometrics? Yeah... yeah, came into play here, where, okay, I did cardio for an hour, and I burned 800 calories. Mm-hmm. 9:29 I worked out for an hour, and I burned 430 calories. Right. 9:33 So people are like, "Well, I'm gonna gravitate over here 'cause I'm burning more calories," where EPOC and all these other things aren't taken into consideration- Yeah... 9:40 where I'm building muscle, increasing my RMR, which is going to increase my daily burn. I'm gonna bur- uh, burn more at rest, right? I mean, this is- Yeah, they're looking for immediate gratification. 9:50 Where am I gonna get most bang for my buck? Exactly. Where- They're not looking at the whole, the whole picture... they're manually trying to cut these calories with this consistent movement. Right. 9:59 Which, guys, I'm gonna tell you right now, we're nomadic as people. The quickest form of adaption is cardio. So just for numbers sake, I burnt 500 calories in my first workout on three miles. 10:13 I did the same three miles the next week. I burned 350. Yeah, it's gonna be less. Your body becomes more efficient. So efficient. So, and that's a good thing. I mean, that's, that's- It's, it's great. 10:22 No, it's, it's great... that's a great thing. We just need to be aware of it, right? And then what signal are we sending? Right. So- So going back, like if, if I'm, if the muscle's atrophying- Mm-hmm... 10:29 it's because it's not getting the proper signal. Mm-hmm. Or the next thing is it's not getting the proper nutrients that it needs- Yes... in order to recover from whatever stimulus you're giving it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 10:39 Or you're so, y- y- you- Undereating... 10:42 you're so undereating or so underrecovered that it has to go there to take nutrients in order to provide the body with the things that it needs to do in order to get through the day or recover from- Yes... 10:51 something else- Yes... whether that's disease, activity, uh, whatever- Yeah... your activities of daily living, what- whatever the case is. 10:59 So like- And your body's gonna kinda regulate whatever is the most important to that metabolically, right? Yeah. 11:05 So you've got this, uh, again, if it's not getting the right stimulus or it's being basically underfed- Mm-hmm... or a combination of both. Oh, yes. Anything else? Have I left anything else out? No, that's pretty much... 11:18 Yeah, sleep. Or I guess which would be recovery, right? Sleep and stress. Sure. So. So that goes back to the recovery, too. Just integrating cardio- Yeah... and strength c- uh, into one another. 11:28 And the reason why it's not going to lose muscle. Well, so here's the thing. 11:34 So I guess what I'm trying to get to is, is like, where did the mindset come in that if I do cardio, I lose muscle, or I lose my ability to build muscle? 11:41 I- it might have even been the, the supplement industry with BCAAs coming in- I don't know... and talking about... [scoffs] Y- I know, right? 11:49 Um, I- Uh, intermatten- intermittent fasted, uh, cardio where- Right, or f- or fasted cardio... 11:56 fasted cardio, drinking your BCAA so you don't burn your muscle, 'cause I know that's a huge- Oh, there's all been, all kinds- You know, I've heard that one, but- All kinds of shit... it's, it's a huge thing. Yeah. 12:06 I, uh, and so I don't know where it stemmed from, um, but as we've talked about before, if your heart sucks, you're gonna not be able to recover between workouts, between sets- Mm-hmm... in between reps. Right. Right. 12:21 So all, it trickles down. Yeah. Being able to circulate nutrients and waste products to and from, right? So I'm gonna say that a higher aerobic system is going to increase your gains. Sure. So- Mm-hmm... 12:36 again, so- Need more work... but again, it's been demonized- For sure... or people are afraid of it. Yeah. So let's just break it down real fast. The bottom line is what's gonna eat up your muscle? 12:45 A, not sending the right signals to it to build in the first place- Yes. Mm-hmm Not eating enough... or maintain. And number two, you're, you're underfed and/or underrecovered. Yes. Mm-hmm. 12:55 Uh, so those are, those are the, uh, two, like, one to three things there that, that are gonna be, they're gonna impact you. Cardio is not going to make you lose muscle, right? Mm-hmm. Not. 13:05 If you're underfed and you're not sending those signals, you're probably going to- Yeah... see a reduction in muscle mass. Mm-hmm. Period. Yeah. End of story. 13:14 So, but then the question becomes, like, okay, all right, I'm starting to understand, I'm starting to get this. I may be a little bit more acceptance of, accepting of this, but I'm still scared. How do we schedule it? 13:23 How do we make this work in our program? Yeah. Like, how do I still take care of my cardiovascular health, um, increase my cardiovascular endurance, um, while still building and/or maintaining, you know, muscle mass? 13:34 Absolutely. So there's kind of, like, ba- some basic approaches- Mm... 13:40 you know, that people take to, uh, kind of their cardio program and/or their resistance program, um, when they're starting to implement it or trying to do 'em together. Mm. 13:48 And some, kinda some funky thought processes, again, going back to demonizing the stuff. Yep. But there's also the, the other end of the spectrum where it's like, no, I- cardio's the most important thing. 13:57 Because to your point, like, cardio burns 800 calories- Exactly... some arbitrary actuated value that's been posted on a treadmill somewhere on some chart. Yes. Like, and- Stop looking at that... right? 14:07 And then there's this fat burning zone or whatever else. It's ridiculous, right? Mm-hmm. And even going down to the heart rate monitors and the straps that these gyms are strapping on people when they walk in. 14:15 And on day one, they do a resting heart rate, and then they figure out your, you know, your quote, unquote, "fat burning zone," whatever color zone that might be or whatever. Yep. 14:23 And you're doing that, and then you don't adjust it again for three or four months. All off theoretics. Right. We just said in a week it's gonna be- Yep... different, so, uh, it's all theoretical. Yep. 14:31 Um, but it's led to a lot of confusion. Yeah, absolutely. So, and people are clearly, the, and I think that there's some fear that's included in that confusion. So going back, like, how do we organize all this? 14:42 I, I was there. We've talked a little bit about this, uh, in the past, but not to the extent that I w- that I think we're gonna do now- Yeah... 14:47 which is, what are the basic ways we see people kind of implement cardio into their s- into their, to their routine? One, I think we need to define, what's your goal? Mm. 14:58 Is your goal just to be general health and wellness? Mm-hmm. Because if that's the case, then three to four days of cardio could be fine. 15:06 Then we're talking, uh, gonna have to talk about intensity and, and duration- Heart rate and shit... and stuff like that, right? Um, or is your goal fat loss? Mm. Right? [laughs] Uh, or changing your body composition? 15:18 Yep. So if that's the case, then- Mine might be somewhere-... I would wanna be, I would want the biggest bang for my buck. So I don't wanna get on a treadmill for 60 minutes, right? 15:28 And then have to do more work to 90 minutes- Right, then next week... in like three weeks or something like that. No. Yeah, that's horrible. I'm gonna work on, on muscle mass. I'm gonna work on strength training. 15:36 So- I go up five pounds each resistance training, and I get this higher input of burn, right? I get this higher input of burn- Mm-hmm... where- With resistance training? Yeah. Mm-hmm. 15:47 So now I'm adding another 30 minutes to get another 250 for I, I, I would argue in that scenario, you're poorly planned. Yeah. Yeah. And- Absolutely Yeah... you're not eating properly. So again- Absolutely... 15:55 it goes back, it goes back to, like- It's your goal... what are your goals? Yeah. 15:59 So yeah, if you're, if you're- 'Cause if you're building tissue- If you, if you're adding 60 minutes of cardio to lose body fat and you're not in, well, I don't know, like, the end stages of your show prep- That's an exaggeration Exactly... 16:10 yeah, but your main goal, a- and, but no, I don't- Like, you're three weeks out for the shoot... you're exaggerating, but this is the shit we see in the tread- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah... 16:16 in the, on the treadmills or the treadmills all the time in the gym. Yeah. Yeah. I th- I think you're poorly planned- Absolutely... and you've, you've got your priorities mixed up. Yes. And you're probab- Misinformed... 16:24 you're way misinformed. You're overeating or undereating. You're comple- you're, you're a mess. 16:30 I think there's, like, maybe a few different ways we see p- people typically implement, uh, cardio into their program if their goal is, like, weight loss or, like, a maintenance of some body fat level, um, or particular weight. 16:47 And Jeff, you kinda outlined those for me earlier today. Maybe we just go back through those. So typically, what I see people doing is either, one, they're resistance training, and they're doing their cardio right after. 16:58 Right after. Right after. You have ones that are doing cardio before, and this is bef- this isn't a warmup cardio. Like, they're running a mile, two miles. Mm-hmm. Like, they're really getting after it. 17:10 Then they're doing their resistance training. 17:12 And then you have people that are doing the resistance, or no resistance training, and strictly cardio to reduce the weight that they have, so then, then they can start doing resistance training. Right. Got you. Mm-hmm. 17:25 Okay. So let's, let's break that down a little bit. Because I think in context, I just, the context I gave was, like, somebody that's trying to lose body fat- Mm... or maintain weight or, or whatever. 17:35 Um, but there's also people that are involved more in maybe more of an endurance event, right? So, like, maybe it's a multi-sport athlete, was, a triathlon's an easy one I think most people can relate to. Mm. 17:45 Or, or a runner. I mean- Mm... just somebody that's a runner that's also maybe trying to implement some kind of- Uh, resistance training into their program- Absolutely... 17:53 which can be really tough, especially if you're a long distance type person- Yeah... because you gotta get that mileage in. Yeah. Yeah. 17:58 And, you know, doing that resistance training, while it's important, oh man, that can be a real drag because it takes away- For sure... 18:06 um, well, basically you feel that the next day, like you're that much more fatigued or you may have a little bit of DOMS. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 18:10 And that has to be very carefully managed 'cause, um, you know, like I have to program out my week where I, well, I have a long day and then I do my resistance training after my long day, and then do a short day the next day. 18:22 Something like that. It's like power benchers that don't, uh, back squat before they go into a bench meet because of their shoulders. Right. Or they're doing a floor press or they're doing a completely- Yeah... 18:32 different type of bench press. Right? So programming is important, right? Very important. And, and how you organize yourself. 18:37 But to your point with those different types of people, again, this is like your general gym-goer who is trying to implement cardio and maybe some type of resistance training- Mm-hmm... or not at all. 18:46 Let's talk about the person and kinda what the impacts are now knowing if we're not giving the right stimulus- Mm-hmm... and we're under-fed and/or under-recovered- Mm... right? 18:54 We're in some kind of, we can categorize that as recovery debt, right? 18:58 If, if we're, if we're doing those things and we're putting the cardio at the front of our resistance training, what's happening there and how could that be impacting the recovery debt as well as the signals that are being sent? 19:11 Gotcha. So this is very common. Most people that are doing this are undereating. They're using a lot of their energy capacity at the beginning of the workout when they really need it for their resistance training. Yeah. 19:25 Right? Um, [laughs] I know that people are like, "Ah, I'm tired. I, and I could walk." Well, think about that, being that tired, then deadlifting. No, I'd much rather walk. 19:37 So why wouldn't you use all of your reserves to lift and resistance train, and then whatever energy you have left, you're able to go through cardio, right? 19:47 Oh, I think, but that goes back to what you were talking about earlier and that is, like, how do I maximize my caloric burn? And then they see from their wrist gadget- Mm-hmm... 19:55 or, you know, some chart somewhere, whether that's on the treadmill or, again, some wearable, that says they're burning more calories by doing their cardiovascular work first and then going to the resistance training. 20:09 Mm-hmm. Um, however they're equating that in their head. Yeah. Right? But what they're not taking into account is the, 20:18 basically the impact that they're going to have in taking away from the energy and the fuel that they have to put in the work- Mm-hmm... into the resistance training piece. Yep. 20:28 And the benefits y- you get long after you've done that resistance training piece- Mm-hmm. Yeah... uh, before doing the cardio, which is the other, the other thing we were talking about. 20:38 Do your resistance training first, then your cardio next. Yeah. So I think we have to break that down a little bit. 20:42 Like, first off, y- you stated before, the little chart that says you burn 800 calories on the treadmill, fuck that chart. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Like, just stop it with that chart. Yeah. 20:52 There's no machine out there that's gonna tell you exactly how many calories you burn. Why is that? Even with the technology that we have right now, it's pr- and it's pretty good. Yeah. We're never gonna know. 21:02 And you know why? [laughs] I'm, I'm just waiting. Individual, individual variance. 21:07 Well, that, but also, I mean, it doesn't take into account who the person is and what type of mu- or the muscle mass that they currently have on their frame. Genetically, yeah. 21:14 They're just looking at the mu- Way more than that... are they more fast or more slow? The, the computer system. Yeah. The computer system is taking into account, like, a certain height and weight. Mass, height, weight. 21:22 Weight. And then this is the exercise, this is how much burn. Ev- even if all that stuff was plugged into the machine, right? In terms of- Yeah... these are just actuated values. They're a bunch of averages- Mm-hmm. 21:32 Yeah... or guess- it's guesswork, is what it is. So stop that shit. Mm-hmm. So that's, that's not a good measure of what you're doing. Now, I understand, like, if your goal is fat loss or weight loss- Mm... 21:45 then you should be ver- highly focused, acutely focused on caloric burn through the day. Mm. But you also have to be acutely focused on caloric input for the day. For sure. Right? It can't just be how much I burn. 21:55 You have to be focused on the quality, the, and the type of nutrients that you do put in. Um, but- Yeah... stop looking at those charts and, 22:04 um, expecting that to, to give you the right kind of direction in order to have the maximum benefit from that stuff. 22:11 The other thing, so then going back over to the, the resistance training piece, and this is what we were sort of getting to, is people don't understand the longer term, let's just say after burn effects that you get from a, uh, solid strength training session when applied- Very important... 22:27 when you, when you apply the training appropriately. Mm. Working at certain intensity levels- Yep... rest, rest intervals, and- Mm... uh, taking time to recover. 22:34 There's going to be an, uh, a continued burning of calories. You're gonna get a continued burning of calories, by the way, after your, uh, cardio, right? Yeah. S- session as well. Because your heart rate's up. For sure. 22:44 It needs to recover. Very short-lived, though. Exactly, be- For what you're talking about can be up to two days. So w- but we're, and we're talking about two different- Exactly... t- two different types of movement. 22:54 Mm-hmm. You mentioned, this was mentioned earlier, and that is one is very anabolic. Mm. That is the resistance training. Versus one is very, uh, um, catabolic- Yes... which is the cardio training. 23:04 And how your hormones and how your, your system, your body, let's just say, responds to those- Exactly... over the longer term. 23:11 Um, so doing your cardio before your, your resistance training, if your goal is to maximize benefit from both the types of training that you're doing and lose fat without losing muscle, it makes more sense to do it the other way around. 23:27 Absolutely. If your goal is to be an ultra-marathoner, right? And you're only able to train or you have limited time- Yep... to do your resistance training either in season- Mm-hmm... uh, during in season or- Yeah... 23:39 sort of in an, uh, a, a kind of a ramp up to your event. We'll call that somewhere in the meso and macro and micro cycles there. 23:47 Uh, then it, it might make sense for you to do your resistance training after your cardio, simply as a matter of- Hey, I don't, like, I can't have too much taken away- Mm-hmm... from my actual run- Yep... 24:02 uh, my running training, uh, through the, through the resistance training piece. In which case, you're very limited in terms of the type of signal, the intensity that you're- Yep... 24:11 you're doing that resistance training at. On the exercise you're doing. Mm-hmm. And that would be more maintenance- Mm. Yes... if you will, or even- Yes... uh, rec- uh, recovery or- Yes... 24:18 active recovery from your run- That'd be like-... through your resistance training... that'd be like a maintenance lift to keep me strong so I can run- Mm-hmm... at this capacity, right? That- That's all that is... 24:30 yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. 24:31 So, like, again, if you're that multi-sport athlete and you know you still need to be doing some resistance training, maybe resistance training's only happening two to three times a week. Mm-hmm. 24:39 Um, but you're programming it very specifically so that it doesn't take away from your run, your bike, and your swim. Exactly. Here's an example. 24:45 Like, if I'm that endurance athlete and I come in and I have a very long, uh, ride, right? I have a very long, slow distance ride that I have to accomplish on, say, a Monday. Mm. 24:55 Um, and then on Tuesday, so but I also need to get my three days of resistance training in, and I have that programmed in for, say, Monday, Wednesday, Friday for- Yep... for conversation's sake. 25:05 But I know tomorrow I need to brick a workout. I need to do now a run and a swim, right? Tomorrow on Tuesday. Uh, but I've had, and I've had this heavy ride, right? Mm. 25:15 It's been fatiguing, and I gotta somewhere fit in a resistance training between, between tonight and tomorrow. 25:22 Well, the type of resistance training that I do as compared to the order of events that I'm gonna, I'm gonna be performing that brick, whether it's a run first- For sure... 25:30 or the swim first, could dictate what I focus on in my resistance training. Absolutely. I don't wanna get too far down that path. And especially the timing. 25:37 I just wanna say, I just wanna make the point that you really need to be thinking about, uh, how you're organizing this training if you're coming at it from the cardiovascular-focused- Exactly... uh, like, event- Mm... 25:50 that you're, that you're training for or, um, you know, as an athlete- Yes... uh, a- a- as a whole. But that's not the majority of people, and that's not, I... 25:58 Those aren't the people that [laughs] that are saying cardio makes you lose muscle. No. Uh, those are the people that we're trying to get to resistance train- Mm... 26:04 'cause they need to be, they need more resistance training in their life. 26:07 It's the, it's, it's the, a much larger population of people that are going, "Well, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do cardio 'cause I'm gonna lose, I'm gonna lose my muscle doing that." Yeah. 26:16 So let's look at it the opposite way. 26:17 So that would be coming in and doing your resistance training first and how that differs from an energy systems perspective to doing, uh, uh, and then performing your cardiovascular work- Mm... afterwards. Yep. 26:31 'Cause in the bigger picture, that is the more efficient way to do it, um, for a few different reasons. So let's, I think we should walk through those. 26:40 Um, one, when I'm doing resistance training, we've already covered this, you're sending an anabolic s- signal, right? 26:45 You are, should be working at intensity levels that require some level of recovery in between so that you can effectively refuel- Mm-hmm... regroup, and hit another set or another rep, right? 26:56 For the duration of whatever your workout is, for the focus on whatever those, that workout is gonna be, whether it's lower body focus or upper body focus or a mix or, or whatever. Mm. 27:06 Whether y- maybe you're doing a body part split- Yeah... um, throughout the week, then walking into your cardio session. 27:12 Um, so the fuel system that I'm using during the resistance training is going to be anaerobic based. Mm. Right? 27:19 And it's also, again, sending anabolic signals, and it's not fatiguing me to the extent that I will not then be able to go and perform at a relatively high level- Yes... 27:30 for that matter in the, uh, in the cardio realm here to get the, uh, the cardiovascular benefit for my heart, lungs, circulatory system, as well as the caloric burning- For sure... 27:43 benefit that I would like to have in order to lose body fat or maintain my- Mm-hmm... my current weight. So maybe we kinda talk through, um, that at a little bit of a deeper level. Um, I mean, or maybe we have. 27:54 I mean, maybe that's, that's all people need to know. Like, if I was gonna go in and do, say, maybe this is the way I organized it. May- if I was gonna go in and I had a lower body focus today, right? 28:03 Uh, so legs are fried in my resistance training. Mm. I come out the other side, I know I need to get my 30 minutes 'cause that's what I have programmed. That's what I wanna do. Yep. 28:12 Um, that's to my program for today, my 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise. I'm gonna pick something that isn't gonna trash everything that I just did- Lower it... you know, with, as my, on my lower legs. 28:22 I'm gonna go into a row. Yeah, maybe I do a row. Skier. Yeah. Maybe I get on a bike. Yeah. You know, and I just go- Maybe you go for a swim. Yeah. Maybe I go for a swim. 28:29 Uh, that used to actually be my favorite thing to do. I go from legs to the pool, um, 'cause, and, and part of that would be I could put a float buoy there. Mm. Yep. 28:36 I can use a, a paddle board, or I could use some hand paddles or a, um, a kickboard or, sorry, float buoy or some hand paddles- Sure, sure. Yep. That's what I would do... to take my legs sort of out of it- Yeah... 28:46 um, so I wasn't getting as fatigued 'cause they, they were dead. Mm. Right? They were- Absolutely... they were dead at that point. So, uh, the pool is a good one. 28:53 If you don't have access to that, there's the skier that you mentioned- Mm... the rower. Yeah. Uh, or something very low, uh- Intensity... intensity. Yeah. 29:00 Like the bicycle versus f- thinking that you have to go run- Pounding... 29:05 and pound it even, or, or pound that stuff even more because that could be taking away from the recovery, going back to the recovery debt eq- equation- Absolutely... 29:14 if you're overdoing it on that day for that particular, say, muscle group. 1000%. Yeah. And like you just said, I had a lower body day, and, like, maybe I got on the bike instead of running, right? And I, 29:26 active recovery type of cardio, right? Whereas a lot of people aren't looking at it that way in the muscle sense, right? Where they're focused on the cardiovascular. 29:34 But for you, you got cardiovascular input, and you also got an active recovery through those muscles because they're- Redistributed... you're, you're stronger than that. 29:42 Redist- You're just pushing muscle, you're- Redistributed, uh, the blood throughout the body. Exactly. I moved waste in and out. Exactly. Exactly. I, I, you know, I moved nutrients to where they needed to go. 29:49 You didn't create more waste or more damage. I got to downregulate at the top. Exactly. Mm-hmm. My, you know, from a somatic perspective, things ki- I can kinda calm things down. Exactly. 29:57 That's a, that's a really good point. 29:59 Um, I, I, there's, I think there's even another piece to this and, and, and, uh, with regard to, you know, how you're- Again, combo-ing your resistance training against your, your, your cardiovascular training. 30:11 And it's, it's not thinking that now I'm in cardio, I have to burn the maximum amount of calories possible during this 30 minutes. Oh, no. Um, because if you combo your... 30:22 If, if you're, if you're doing it in the, in the way we're talking about, which is hit that resistance training hard- Mm-hmm... right? Not leaving stuff left over in the tank for your cardio. Yeah. 30:30 Get, fucking leave it out there on the field, if you will, through your resistance training. Mm. Now move into your, into your cardiovascular training. You're gonna recognize you don't have to train as hard- No... 30:38 or you don't have to work as hard in order to, to get the, again, the benefits of both and the caloric burn. Because you're gonna get more caloric burn longer term through that anaerobic or the resistance training- Mm... 30:49 in the long run. Even if you weren't doing- Right... uh, cardio And we burned a shit ton of glycogen during that, uh, hard lifting workout. Now we're coming back to a more aerobic threshold and we're burning, what? Fat. 31:02 Right. Right? So- So when we go to our beta oxidative state, yeah. Or our- So. Yeah. So the- So it comes down to programming. It does come down to programming. 31:10 And so you're not, you're not burning, you're not taking away from your legs, your leg day- Mm... by doing cycling afterwards. No. In fact, it could be helping. It's just what type of cardio- Exactly... 31:21 and how hard are you pushing it? And the intensity, yep. Right, intensity. So it's intensity and type- Yep... that probably play, play, play more into that than anything else. 31:28 Uh, you know, again, like, running seems to be, like, the go-to for, for most people because it's kind of the most accessible thing. Mm-hmm. 31:35 And by the way, they feel like they burn more calories doing it, uh, because, you know, they're sweaty and- Mm... there's a, there's a high energy cost there. For sure, yeah. 31:43 But a lot of that has to do, again, going back to what Cecil was saying, is like the, the constant pounding or that, that, that, what that activity actually, um, you know, entails and what the demand that you're placing on the body. 31:53 The heart rate's constantly high. Yeah. Yeah. It's, yeah. So 31:56 again, it's not that, that going back to the, uh, recovery debt piece, uh, that cycling after, or the swimming after the leg day could actually be helping you with the recovery process while be getting, while getting you- Yes... 32:13 the benefits [laughs] of the cardiovascular stuff. Yes. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And you're not burning muscle. Exactly. 32:17 The only thing that would, the only thing at this point that would, let's just say it was all, we all crammed it into one day, which we'll move to next- Yeah... in terms of time, time spans. 32:24 Let's say we had to cram everything into one day and we were basing everything off of just this one workout that's- Mm-hmm... resistance plus cardio combined. E- [laughs] even, even if you, 32:36 w- if you look at that and you look at how the, the recovery system, like, the recovery debt. Mm-hmm. The only way you're going to have any negative impact on, well, that's not a fair statement. 32:47 But the, the way that you're gonna negatively impact is if you come in and you don't eat correctly- Absolutely... 32:52 or get proper sleep or get, so eat proper amounts- You think Michael Phelps with 12,000 fucking calories had a six-pack? This comes back to our old, our old analogy or our old acronym, which is EATS squared plus C. Mm. 33:04 Are you eating real food? Yep. Are you getting adequate, uh, uh, macro and micronutrients? The type of diet that you're eating, does that provide you with the things that we just talked about? 33:13 The type that you just said. Uh, the s- sleep and stress management, is it being managed? And, uh, 'cause what we're talking about is the third part, or the last part only, which is the exercise piece. Mm-hmm. 33:23 Um, so that exercise programming is important, but it's no more less or more important than any of those other things. Yep. That is what's gonna eat up, quote-unquote, eat up your muscle. Mm. Yes. 33:33 By not balancing those things. Yes. So, uh, that, I think, what I was just, uh, alluding to there was is, like, thinking about the, the, the time pieces. 33:43 Like, how long, even if I, even if I didn't eat, you know, for, uh, five hours- Mm... after this workout, this, this, this, uh, resistance sla- slash cardio session. You're still gonna burn muscle. Why not? 33:59 Uh, just, hmm, the body doesn't work that way. It's not how your body works. 34:02 [laughs] W- well, it's, well- So if we just looked at a glycogen storage and a bunch of other things, uh, when the body starts pulling from muscle, and it depends on the energy system that we're in, because we have fat as well, um, the body's gonna pull from protein, like, your actual muscle at about 72 hours, and that's what we call starvation. 34:23 Yeah. That's assuming you're in basically like a starvation mode. Exactly. Like, st- and that is, like, that's not at 24 hours. It's not at 12 hours. It's not at your little intermittent fasting 16 hours. 34:32 It's none of that. That is three days in. There's a little bit of depends in that in terms of your health. For sure. Absolutely. Your health status and all that. But, but- But for the average- As we-... 34:41 which is what we have to kind of boil this down to, yeah... what we have on basic science is, like, 72 hours, and I'm gonna even go down to 48 to 72, but that's where you start to see muscle breakdown. 34:52 And when you are not ingesting anything to fuel the workout- So, so now-... that is the most important thing... you're under-recovered. Yeah. Yeah. But if you ate something, that's not coming from your muscle. Right. 35:02 You still have stores that you ate. It might not be as much as you need. Right, but you're topping off the tank. You're still, exactly. So think of it as you have your gas tank, right? Exactly. 35:12 And you're starting to deplete this gas tank. That one gas ta- or that one workout didn't deplete your gas tank. Yeah, absolutely not. Right? It brought it down a little bit. And if it did, there's, there's an issue. 35:20 The whole idea is, is you leave there. Mm-hmm. Now, you eat a little bit properly, and you top off the gas tank. Yeah. Right? Yes. And that topping off gives you, you're already in recovery. You're never at a half tank. 35:30 Right? While, while you're top, while you're topping off. Right? Your body is using- Yep... what was already in the system. Mm-hmm. That was from yesterday's meals. Exactly. 35:36 And the, and the meals before that, and the sleep that you got before that. Yep. Using that to recover and get you ready for the next workout. 35:42 So if you don't eat, you'll, then you're not topped off, and obviously, you have the demands of the regular part of the day. It's gonna pull into that. And then maybe the next workout, so you're not fully recovered. 35:52 You might be a quarter down. So now you're moving even- That's where we're going. Yeah... yeah, maybe moved to a half tank- Yeah... if you take another quarter off. Yep. So now you're in recovery debt. Mm-hmm. Right? 36:00 You haven't fully recovered. Yep. Um, which is the importance of making sure that you put that fuel back in- Exactly... in the right way at a regular t- time table. 36:09 That's the whole point of it, why you worked out in the first place, right? So to your point, like, even if you waited, even if you didn't eat for a full day after, you're still not burning up your muscle mass. 36:19 Not happening. You're in recovery debt. Mm-hmm. And continuing this process by not- Uh, or now we're gonna call it over-training because you're- For sure... under-recovered. Exactly. 36:28 But you shouldn't be training like this, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause you're not eating properly- Yep... to support your, your, your de- the demands or your needs. 36:34 That's putting you further into recovery debt, which is also for p- uh, uh, ultimately putting you... Part of that is, is a result of being in a caloric deficit, uh, for that recovery. For sure. 36:46 And that, over time, over a longer period of time, will start to create the next process, which is a down-regulation of what we'll just call your metabolism. Yeah. 36:55 Now your body's looking at it going, "Oh, well I'm not getting the gas- the gas tank isn't getting full." Well, unlike your car, right, your body has the ability to now regulate the amount of energy. 37:05 It's almost like- Mm-hmm... almost like a dual fuel system, if you will. Like in a car, like you have your gas- Yeah... and your electricity. 37:11 If you're not eating, if you're not putting gas in it, ultimately it's gonna have to go over to the, to electric s- Yeah... electricity. And if you're not refueling either of those, you're fucked. Yeah. Right? 37:19 You're gonna run out of gas or you're gonna run out of, of, of power at some point. You could look at it almost like that full tank is gonna be, let's just call it 1,000 miles. 37:26 After whatever you're doing, we go back to the same analysis. You're at 750 at the same tank. Right. Same tank. Right? Your tank hasn't changed. Exactly. 37:34 So you're under-recovered and now you're starting to get into re- again, recovery debt. Now you're underfed. Which is the biggest thing. 37:40 And over time, now your body, your, what, what we're getting at there is your body is going to down-regulate how much, uh, or e- excuse me, it's become, it's gonna down-regulate and become more efficient at using less fuel- Yes... 37:53 to get you through- The same job. Yeah... the same job. Yeah. 37:56 So, and part of that is going and finding it other places, metabolizing things a little slower, doing things a little differently, cr- switching certain hormones on, other hormones off. Exactly. 38:05 Uh, there's, there's a lot of things at play here that can ultimately mean atrophy of muscles, because we're now robbing nutrients from them. Mm-hmm. And then we can get into muscle wasting, as it might- Yes, yes, yes... 38:18 be referred to, or eating up your muscle. But this is a process over a long period of time. Very long. This is not something that happens in a matter of hours or days. No. So don't panic. 38:29 Regardless of where you put your cardio and your resistance training next to one another. For sure. Right? Don't pa- You over-trained one day and you missed a meal? Cool. Take a day off. Eat that- Yeah... 38:37 or eat fucking double the next day and go train. Yeah. Like, there's, there's so many ways to handle this. Don't- St- don't throw up your hands. Don't panic. Exactly. 38:45 It's the same, it's, it's the same thought process, but it's reverse of, "Oh my God, I went out last night and I had," you know- Five beers... five beers. Cool. Pizza. The steak, the cheesecake- Yeah... 38:54 or the pizza or whatever else, and now I gotta go to the gym tomorrow. And I gotta get on the treadmill for- Yeah... an hour and burn 1,000 calories, and then do my weight training that burns- Yeah... 39:04 300 calories so that I can- That was a re-feed... I can [laughs] I, that I can equate or burn off the calories that I ate last night. Exactly. And the same reason, your body does not work like that either. Yeah. 39:14 You're not, you're not manually burning off calories that you... Like, I'm going out and I had 750 of fun calories, and tomorrow I'm gonna burn 750 of- By punishing myself... calories. Yeah. 39:25 Ex- that's just, it's not the way it works. Probably those calories help build muscle and bring hormones back, and let's be real. Could've been a, could've been a good thing. Exactly. Could've been a good stimulus. 39:33 Mm-hmm. Exactly. It could've up-regulated some things. Exactly. Yeah. So I think the takeaways here are, uh, first, stop worrying about wasting muscle through cardio. Cardio's not a problem. Cardio's a benefit. Mm. 39:44 Mm-hmm. Right? Cardio can benefit your muscle building. 1,000. If you're atrophying, if you're losing muscle density, go back to E squared plus C. Mm-hmm. Right? Are you eating enough calories? 39:55 Uh, are you getting adequate nutrients? Are, you know, the foods that you're eating, are they equating the way you need 'em? Are you sleeping? Are you recovering? 40:03 Um, because that exercise piece could be taking away from those things. For sure. Um, and th- those are the things we really need to, really need to be evaluating. 40:12 It's not the cardio that's, that's taking away your muscle, and it's not gonna. No. It's you being underfed, under-recovered, and not sending the right signals in the proper order. 40:20 'Cause those same people that are doing the cardio, if they were just resistance training, I guarantee you they'd still be undereating. You get what I'm saying? 1000% agree. [laughs] So- Yeah, definitely... e- exactly. 40:31 Mm-hmm. So I just think it comes down to, you know, like us as a general, we just don't eat as much. And in the proper amounts. Because it comes from obesity as like, everyone's fat. 40:40 Where it's like, eh, it's not really the, the issue. But- Yeah. So stop demonizing the cardio, right? Yeah. And stop worrying about it taking away from your muscle- from your muscle. 40:50 Even you guys that are out there trying to build muscle, you can still do cardio. If you hate it and don't wanna do it, don't fucking do it. 40:55 [laughs] But the health benefits that you can gain from it, the performance benefit that you can gain from it from a recovery perspective, from a muscle-building perspective, um, and through the different phases of your training program as you go through the line, which you should be phasing- Exactly... 41:07 can be hugely beneficial. So stop blaming cardio for burning muscle. [rock music] Thank you for tuning into this episode of Iron Sights. 41:14 If you enjoyed our conversation, you can support our mission by hitting the subscribe button, leaving a review, and sharing the podcast with a friend. I'll see you on the next episode.
