Transcript 0:00 Anybody that's ever jumped into a freezing cold pool, river, lake, stream, ocean, whatever, knows how exhilarating, painful, and shocking that experience can be. 0:12 I sat down with CC and Jeff and we challenged one another to research and talk a little bit about the super hot topic of cold immersion therapy. That would be, like, ice baths. 0:23 We also talk about cryotherapy and cryo chambers. 0:26 In our conversation, we cover the common benefits of cold therapy, promises like what it does for inflammation, recovery, fat loss, the benefits of vasoconstriction, also the downsides of vasoconstriction, lymphatic drainage, uh, the impact on pain receptors, and a ton more. 0:42 We love cold therapy, but wanted to contribute a, sort of a greater conversation on the using it to heal and improve your life. You know what else is a cool benefit? The stuff we do over here at Red Dot Fitness. 0:53 We have all kinds of programs available to our people online. Uh, if you wanna find out more about those, you can go to rdftrainonline.com. That's rdftrainonline.com. 1:04 If you wanna talk to us, find out a little bit more about the things that you read and see there, go ahead and hit us on an email. There's a contact page, makes that easy to do once you hit the website. 1:12 Or you can give us a call and somebody will be here to answer your call and give you all the information that you need. [rock music] Welcome to Iron Sights. 1:24 This podcast candidly seeks to create opportunities and deliver impact by sharing the experiences and wisdom of successful entrepreneurs and thought leaders who unapologetically aim to win in health, fitness, business, and life. 1:38 I'm your host, Scott Howell. Welcome to old school meets new school, tradition meets innovation, and imperfection meets excellence. Thanks for listening, and enjoy the show. 1:49 I found, when I researched this a little bit more, 'cause I really hadn't looked into it in quite some time. I hadn't practiced any cold therapy and haven't practiced it in a while. 1:58 But I found some stuff out that I did not know about, some research that's come up, and it also took me down the rabbit hole of some old research, uh, to compare and contrast. I found it to be very interesting. 2:08 This is, this was a really rewarding kind of topic to, to dig into for me. I wonder what you guys found was kind of the most interesting thing or popped up, uh, in your own research, and I'll start with you, CC. 2:21 I had a hard time finding protocols on it- Mm-hmm... um, as far as the application. 2:27 Because what I was extrapolating from the, the various things that I was reading, okay, so you want the temperature to be about 15 degrees, um, Celsius, which is about 59 degrees Fahrenheit. 2:39 And then I was reading that, um, it's about a, a 10 or 15-minute immersion process. Mm-hmm. You don't wanna go over 20. Mm-hmm. 2:48 But then I was like, oh, that's so fascinating because within athletic training, we're talking about the application of ice or, you know, immersion in ice buckets and those types of things, and it's, like, w- a minimum of 20 minutes. 3:01 So about 15 to 20 minutes out of every hour. Um- And what was their protocol for the first one? Was it still icing or was it a different type of application? Which first one, sorry? 3:11 So for icing, like, you were talking about athletic icing- Oh, uh-huh... like, putting ice- Athletic training. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What was the, what was the 10, or nothing over 10 minutes? 3:18 No, no, no, that was the cold immersion- Gotcha... therapy. Gotcha. So they were saying that- So like ice bath. Mm-hmm. Gotcha. Ice bath. Gotcha. So it's, like, um, 10 to 15 minutes. Okay. 3:27 And then I had a hard time finding information on, um, how frequently do you do it- Mm-hmm... 3:33 because, um, it, a, a lot of the, the websites and the, um, PDFs that I found and downloaded, they were talking about how, um, you should only really do it after really strenuous workouts. Mm-hmm. Hmm. 3:46 So that's very subjective, I think- I think-... as far as what's strenuous, because what's strenuous to, let's say, you know, um, I don't know, you versus, I don't know, grandma [laughs] 3:57 who's like- Well, let- Or, or- Let's roll in that... or somebody who's older- For sure... then, you know, that's, that's gonna, um, be a differentiating factor there. Um, so I found that challenging. 4:09 Yeah, so i- interesting, a couple things. First off, I was the same with the protocols. I was like, it's interesting you said, how, how cold did you say? 15 degrees? Uh, s- Celsius... uh, Celsius- Yeah, yeah... 4:17 which is 59 degrees Fahrenheit. Yeah. So I, I found from a study- Hmm... back in, like, I think it was, like, '17 is when this was done. 4:24 It was somewhere between liter- like, I remember the numbers very specifically, between 41 and 50 degrees- Yep. Yep... s- uh, Fahrenheit. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So much different. 50's like the standard. Mm-hmm. 4:33 So much different. I mean, that's a, there's a big difference. Uh, the other part that you mentioned there about, like, what, what is the protocol and what's it for and who does it benefit? What time. 4:42 Almost all of these studies are done around very specifically performance enhancement. Mm-hmm. Uh, but m- but that wasn't what they were saying. What they're saying is recovery time- Mm-hmm... from workouts. Yes. 4:55 Speeding up, um, or i- uh, improving recovery time, uh, in between strenuous- Yes... more strenuous exercise sessions. 5:04 And I think that is very limiting when we're looking at, like, what are the benefits of cold immersion therapy- Sure... 5:09 because I think there are, there are several, and it doesn't necessarily have to be about- And, and what modality are we using? Yeah, recovery. Mm-hmm. Like, what... So the bigger question is, is, like, why? 5:19 We'll, we'll come back to that. Um, but I, I was, I was challenged in the same, in the same way. The, the bottom line is there's just not a ton of research around this. 5:26 I have my suspicions as to why, but, like, published research. Mm-hmm. For sure. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence, and I don't wanna take anything away from that, because that can be really important. 5:35 Yeah, so I think I was reading that, you know, as far as the randomized control research studies, the, it's very sparse at this point. Right. It's very new. Yeah. 5:44 It's g- it kind of goes back to, like, our foam rolling, uh- Uh, episode where, where people were really getting on board with all, all kinds of stuff very early on, but the jury still hadn't been out yet. 5:55 And I think it's still out, but there are a lot of things that I think we can surmise, um, and be fairly confident about it, and, and we'll, I think we'll get into those as, as the rest of our talk And I think it takes time and also, you know, subjective, people getting in and out and actually doing these things and then like- Agreed 100%. 6:08 Yeah. Like, the, the worlds of sports performance and health and wellness- It's good... need to come together on it. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of value somewhere in the middle of all that. For sure. 6:15 But I, I wonder about you, Jeff, kind of what was the, what were some of the things that came up for you? So when I was looking at, uh, the cold immersion, uh, one, really big right now, is the cryogenic, right? Mm-hmm. 6:24 And when I say cryogenic, I mean you can literally call any icing cryogenic, but I'm talking about getting into a chamber where the skin is getting to a sub-thermal level, and it enacts to the body that it's going into shock, right? 6:38 And so that's how we- Through nitrogen gas. Exactly. Right. So we use that, and then ice baths. People are going literally right after their hard workout into these ice baths. Mm-hmm. 6:48 Um, I found a lot of research saying that, one, if you want to do cryogenic or ice, it's usually before your workout, your hard workout. Interesting. If you do it afterwards, what are we doing? 6:59 We're reducing the inflammation, which helps with the response of muscle growth. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like- It's like recovery... yeah, that's a big one. And that one I think we really need to, to, to dig into- Yeah... 7:10 um, as part of this. Because, again, the question should always be like, "Why are we doing this?" Mm-hmm. "What is, what is the, the result that we're looking for? What is the goal?" Yeah. 7:19 So I got, I got the same thing from it. Mm-hmm. And just kind of looking at that term inflammation, and again, people hear that word and they freak out a little bit. Inflammation is not a bad thing. Mm-mm. 7:29 Chronic inflammation- Yeah. Mm-hmm... uh, caused by certain things can be very bad over time. For sure. 7:35 Um, but, you know, inflammation is not a bad thing, and is reducing it necessarily a good thing, uh, depending on the why. It's almost like the ibuprofen that you take after you work out 'cause your legs are sore. Right. 7:46 Right? Yeah. So we're, we're gonna negate muscle growth through that. Yes. We may. Absolutely. Yeah, we may. And s- And, and, and recovery, es- especially after if you sustain an injury. 7:54 I mean, research has shown that over time, like, you don't wanna take ibuprofen or an anti-inflammatory for the first, like, 72 hours or even up to, um, four or five days afterwards because your body has, that's part of your body's natural response to healing. 8:12 Mm-hmm. And you're im- impacting that. Yep. You're impeding it. That's such a, a, an important point, I think, to really kick this off with. 8:19 And, and that is understanding, again, the why, but when we're looking at performance improvement or performance enhancement, increased or, uh, sorry, improved recovery time, or we, we could call it like the decrease- Yep... 8:31 in the time it takes you to recover in order to perform the next workout, um, where does this fit in? So I, we can kind of always, I love to come back to our compass, right? Mm-hmm. 8:43 Sort of our roadmap of, like, w- what is our goal, right? Yeah. Is this an aesthetic goal? Is this a performance goal, or is this like a health and wellness, kind of longevity-type goal? 8:53 Why are we using cold immersion therapy? Mm-hmm. And we can define the cold immersion therapy as basically an ice bath, right? Yeah. Uh, and some cases that might just mean putting a limb, like, in an ice bath. Yes. 9:04 I remember when I tore my ankle up, um, as an athlete, uh, I was ice bathing quite consistently and that was, like, up to my knee. That's, that's not a whole body, uh, ice bath. That was very specific. 9:17 It was very focused on a very specific area of my body, and it was, it was basically, again, everything from my knee down. Uh, so that's one way to, to, to, to do it. 9:26 Then other ways that you're seeing out there now are these, basically what they are are, are livestock troughs where they- Yeah... put water in for livestock. Oh. 9:33 They fill them up with ice and water, and then you get in effectively up to basically your ears- Yep... uh, in this thing, and you submerge your, submerge your whole body. So that's one way. 9:41 And I have done that as well in the training room. Mm-hmm. Uh- In the training room. It's those, um, huge gallon, 30-gallon trash, uh, bins. Yeah, yeah. Remember? 9:49 [laughs] So we had all different, depending on the- So they turned into troughs now, right? Yeah. [laughs] Very funny. But it used to be the barrel. Yeah. It's great that you bring that up- Yeah... 9:54 because I've been in several training rooms, right? And, and it depended on the size, like, and the funding that they had. For sure. Mm-hmm. 10:00 'Cause, yeah, you could go out and, like, get a, a f- a 30-gallon or a 50-gallon drum. Yep. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, you would put oil or- Oil in there... toxic waste in for that matter, right? Sure. 10:08 [laughs] Like, and that could be filled, right? Yeah. That could look like that. It could look like one of these, uh, um, uh, uh, sorry, like I just mentioned, the troughs- The barrel, yeah... that people get in. 10:16 Looks like a hot tub. You know, there's, there's multiple- With a motor. Yeah. W- so that was the other part. 10:20 Like, you had, uh, you had the ones, and they were, they were never long enough to actually get all the way in. [laughs] They were short. You had to bend those knees. Well, maybe for you. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. 10:27 Bend those knees. So you could sit in it. You'd have to bend your knees, but there was- [laughs]... basic- they t- they called it a whirlpool, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, yep. 10:33 And where you sat in there, and they started up the motor, and it was basically- Yep... it was basically like the trolling motor you had on the back of your- [laughs] Yep... 10:39 your family raft or whatever you go fishing with. [laughs] There's been, also I've seen and, and done all kinds of things. Yeah. But to paint the picture, it's effectively, that's what it is. 10:46 If you haven't seen it, it's basically just a, a tub. You could even do it in an inflatable tub. There's- You can do it in your bathtub. That's problematic. Fucking my ice. 10:53 Nowadays we're seeing, we're seeing ways for people, and those things are, uh, you know, they, they've, they're, it's become a product now, right? Yes. So there's- Yeah... 11:02 again, that's probably why you're hearing and seeing a little bit more of it being pushed out there. 11:06 There are benefits, obviously, we'll talk about those, but it's a product, so anytime anybody has something to sell, you're gonna start to hear a lot more about it. 11:12 So what you're seeing is those, effectively those drums. Now they're, they're plastic. It's, it's the white one, right? Looks like a wine barrel. Yeah. Or a, um, like a keg, if you will. Yep. 11:21 A big large keg that, with a top on it. You can leave it out on your porch, right? The, while the product may be semi-expensive to get, once you have it- Oh... it's very easy to, to use, right? 11:32 All you're talking about is cost of water and ice. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and depending on where you live, logistically you might not have to put much ice in it. 11:37 And they have the ones that will keep you at, you know, whatever degrees you want- They're refrigerated... from 30, from 35 to 45, and that's where you're getting into 6 to 12 grand. 11:45 But, I mean- There's all these different products- Yeah... right? So there's a huge market for this. Um, but go back to what you were saying, Jeff, with regard to the cryo. Mm-hmm. 11:54 I think it's important to kind of compare and contrast the two. Yes. Well, why would I want an, a, a water immersion- That's a great question, dude... versus, yeah, the, the, the cryo or the nitrogen gas? 12:04 'Cause for me, when I get into a ice bath- Um, that's more mental. Like, I'm really breathing. Like, it, it, it's- Absolutely... 12:11 it's a completely different aspect than getting into a cryo machine where the nitrogen gas is literally tricking your body to thinking that you're in a subthermal to activate this response, right? Mm-hmm. 12:25 When you're in the ice bath, it does the same thing, but it isn't- It's much more immediate... it's, the, the cold is much more immediate. You are, you're there, you're immersed, you're... 12:34 For me, that's more of a mental meditation breathing thing. When I'm going into cryo, um, I have a real issue. So I kind of look at it a little different. 12:42 If I have light inflammation, I'm gonna do an ice bath in my home, and I'm gonna work on breathing meditation, kinda getting set in the ice- Mm-hmm... without me, like, being like, "I need to get out of here." 12:51 This is a whole aspect of the therapy itself. For sure. And you're, and using it to how you need to based on training, what I wanna do that day- Goals... mental versus physical. Goals. Dude, every day. 13:03 So the reason it takes... And the other part of it is, is it takes longer for your body to begin to cool- Yes... right, from external to internal- Yes... in the cryo chamber versus the, the water- Mm-hmm... 13:17 because the water molecules are so much smaller than the gas molecules- Yes... and so far, there's more surface area being covered, um, on the skin through the water, through the fluid- Mm-hmm... rather than the gas. 13:29 The gas, yep. So remember back to physical science class, and you're talking about liquids and gases- Mm-hmm... and vapors. Yep. That's effectively what we're, what we're dealing with here. Yeah, absolutely. 13:38 And so those water molecules are much more dense, and they're much more, are, uh, packed closer together. Yep. They cover more surface area, and so you're gonna get on... It's gonna hit you faster. Yeah, immediately. 13:47 Im- immediately. But you're also gonna get the barometric pressure difference, too, as far as with the water versus the gas. Yep. That's- So that's going to impact you physiologically different. 13:55 Yeah, and I think people should understand that. 13:57 And the other part of it is, and we, I mentioned this before, going back to the, the products, like, particularly, like, these barrels that people are using to jump in, which are relatively inexpensive. Yeah. Right? 14:06 I mean, you can get a home Depot and whatever you want. When you think about cost of product, shipping, all that. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever you decide to use. You can buy a flower bed if you want to. 14:12 [laughs] Yeah, you can, you can, you can l- easily have one of these in your yard- Yeah... 14:15 or your garage or wherever you have some overflow space, 'cause the water's certainly gonna come out of there, or you're gonna have to continually fill it up. 14:21 The point of that is, is getting in a cryo chamber costs a lot of money. Yes. Uh, it costs a lot of money to run one of those. Yep. Costs a lot of money to get even permitting to have one of those on your site. 14:31 You have to have- Getting them to gas it properly. You have to- They don't even know how to use it. Yeah, there's all the- Yeah, it's-... all the mechanicals It's the tech. 14:36 It's like having a swimming pool, effectively, right? Oh. It's a bigger footprint. [laughs] Yep. Um, and- That's good with the swimming pool. Right, so you have to- Right?... constantly keep it... 14:43 And, and it has to be accessible to you. Yep. Now, there's gyms that have put these in. There's chiropractic offices that have put these in. 14:48 And not, not to take anything away from them, but I think what they're realizing is that probably wasn't a super great investment. Investment. [laughs] It would've been better to pay a plumber- So I'll-... 14:56 maybe to put in the tu- the, the, the- I'll play devil's advocate on that, because for the gym that I went to, they added a $99- Oh, no, I get it... un- like, unlimited. Yeah. 15:06 And I think they got messed up on it for the nitrogen gas and how much they were doing. But man, I was going in before every session and just- Yeah... unlimited. When you look and you go to another place- But-... $99. 15:17 You're usually paying $70 a session, 70 to $80, $90 per session. Right. Like- But that's no, that's no different than the gym business in, in general. 15:26 Absolutely, 'cause they know people don't- They, they don't expect you to use it. Right. Exactly. So that's- So- That, that, and this is my point... they lost out on me. 15:31 Eventually, people are gonna cancel that end of their membership- For sure... right? They're gonna pay to use the equipment and go, "I'm never using this shit"- Yeah... and they're gonna cut it off. 15:37 But the point of that is, it is very expensive to get into- Yes... for a cryo, uh, bed, chamber, uh, the gas that, uh, and the power that it takes to run those. They're about 60 to 90 grand. It's crazy. 15:48 Yeah, there's a l- For the good ones... and there's regulation around it- For the good ones, yeah... depending on where you live and, and whatnot. 15:51 So those are, those are kind of the differences between the two therapies. So again, now this, people have found that the cold immersion or the water immersion therapy is, is, uh, is more accessible to them. 16:02 So going back to goals- Mm-hmm... um, when we're looking at this, and you just mentioned a couple things like w- Jeff, like, what is it that I'm looking to get out of it for the day? Let's break this down a little bit. 16:12 'Cause some people are looking for, um, let's say a faster recovery time. And when we looking at faster recovery time, there's a few things that go into that. 16:22 Things that come to my mind would be, like, how sore am I- Mm-hmm... and how quick or, or, and how, how quickly do I get sore, and how fast does that soreness leave my body, like delayed onset mu- muscle soreness. 16:33 For sure. Um- Where are my calories at? Correct. Correct. So and that, there's a lot of things that go into recovery, right? But how, but I'm talking about the soreness piece, like how quick does it come and go? 16:45 The other part is, is like how... Is getting proper, going back to that, is getting those nutrients into the system as quickly as possible- Yeah... 16:51 so that I can start and finish this recovery process, uh, as, as fast and as efficiently as possible. Um, there's also, I, I think there's also a piece around, like, we're going back to the word inflammation. 17:06 Like, inflammation is good, but too much isn't good. Mm-hmm. Where's the line for me- Yeah... and how do I manage this process for me, and what do I get out of it there? 17:14 So let's talk about, let's talk about that specifically, and I'm gonna turn this one to you, CC, and kind of going b- Great. [laughs]... going back to icing- Mm-hmm... uh, an injury versus icing your entire body. 17:25 Again, an immersion therapy where you're, you're, you're getting in up to your chin and your ears in an ice bath. 17:31 And the, and in the context of both of those and kind of where, what icing does from an injury recovery perspective or treatment, let's not say recovery, let's say treatment, versus cold immersion therapy and where we're gonna take this conversation. 17:44 Yep. So [clears throat] 17:47 originally, the whole idea behind ice with, with an injury was to create vasoconstriction to help eliminate or reduce, not eliminate, but to reduce swelling to the site of injury and help to, um, I think, 18:02 generate or create, um, more leukocytes in the area to help debris, uh- You're pulling out the cytokines for the, uh- Right, exactly... inflammation... 18:10 to debris, um, you know, the, the metabolites and stuff like that that would develop in the area from injury Um, and so, you know, the idea was to ice the site of injury for 15, 20 minutes, elevate it, and then maybe, depending on the severity of the injury, add some light effleurage. 18:31 So it's kinda like nice stroking massage upwards towards the heart to help, yep, with lymphatic drainage- To push that fluid-... and push the fluid out... out of the injured area. Everyone likes a nice pressure. 18:41 Yep Because there's a joint space. The swelling is generally what's causing a good deal of the pain. Pain, right. Right, yeah. Right. Putting pressure on those, uh, nociceptors. Right. 18:50 So, um, and it's not systemic necessarily. Yes. So systemic as in like with cold immersion therapy. Mm-hmm. Whereas with applying ice, you're applying it to just the one site. So, so maybe- The, the, the one joint. Mm. 19:04 The one limb, the muscle. Maybe you have an acute injury in your elbow, wrist, instead of full body inflammation- Mm-hmm... from bad diet or whatever is going on with you. Yeah. 19:12 And then the other thing with the icing is, um, acting as a analgesic, right? Mm-hmm. So you get the numbing effect. But- So it's a distraction. Yep. It's a distraction. Foam roller. 19:22 And I know that there's been a lot of discussion in the athletic training world as far as, well, how much does the icing really create- Mm... vasoconstriction? 19:30 'Cause there's this whole theory going back and forth between, oh, um, depending on, uh, going from the acute to more subacute, doing contrast baths, so going from ice to heat. 19:40 [laughs] If you've ever seen a man- Ice to heat... get in and out of the ocean and come out with his appendage smaller, I'm gonna tell you right now- [laughs]... the, uh, water- [laughs] So let's talk about that. 19:48 Let's be real. So- I mean, dude, come on. So- Like I've, I've experienced it. Appended? So Jeff- What? Sand? Sand. My, yeah, my [laughs] Your foot? Yes. Yeah. Jeff's, Jeff's- My, my pinky toe... sausage fingers. 19:59 [laughs] I didn't think that only happens with women. Does it? Uh, I don't know. Do, does it? I don't know. [laughs] I don't know. This is one of those- This is going... this, this is a day and time where- Yeah... 20:07 I, that's pro- that, that could be defined probably several different ways. We'll have to hit the beach later. [laughs] Uh, I love that you brought that up bec- uh, both of those, those things. 20:15 One, uh, [laughs] the appendage piece I think is funny. But it also is, uh, is applicable to my example, or what I'm about to say specific to icing, and, uh, the, actually the depth at which that cold reaches an injury. 20:30 And this is what, you know, going back to icing. So you, anybody that's ever been injured, you know, gotten a black eye or fallen down and had some type of a contusion or, or whatever, right? You grab a bag of ice. 20:41 Hopefully, what you're doing is you're insulating it at some level- For sure... from your skin, so it's not- Putting it on... directly on your skin and, or it's very controllable. Mm-hmm. 20:48 Uh, so you're not damaging the skin, burning the skin, getting ef- effectively frostbite. Uh, but there is a lot of question about, like, depending on where that, that injury is, the depth of that injury. 21:00 Let's say it's a, a contusion to your, your quadricep for, for, for, as an example. 21:04 You take a infield bouncer right into your, into your quad, or you take a football helmet or a hockey stick or something to the, uh, you get chopped up pretty good. Depending on the depth of that injury- Mm-hmm... 21:17 that external cold pressure or cold application that you're getting from that ice might not even get- Yep... 21:23 to the depth to vasoconstrict, that is make those blood vessels smaller and make the muscle cells, those, those long muscle cells that, that, uh, we've talked about before on the show, smaller. Mm. Right? 21:35 To then reduce the amount of, uh, lymphatic drainage and things that are going- Swelling, yeah... and swelling, uh, circulation that's going there. 'Cause your body starts pumping fluid there right away. Yeah. 21:44 And trying to, to CC's point, trying to- Keep it alive. Yeah... heal it, right? It's trying to put the, push the good stuff in, pull the bad stuff out, right? 21:52 Uh, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of question about, like, how, you know, based on the depth of the injury, uh, is that ice really even doing anything from a reduction of inflammation piece? 22:03 More to is it more of a distraction and it's numbing the nervous system, literally numbing the nervous system- Mm-hmm, the, the skin... those no- the no- Yeah, yeah, yeah... the nociceptors that are there, right? 22:13 Uh, to, so that you feel less pain. Mm-hmm. 22:16 Not that you're less injured, not that you're even reducing inflammation, but you feel less pain, which allows you to then maybe go to more, more of an active recovery or an external active recovery type process like that effleurage, which could be really painful. 22:28 That's what we're trying to do, right? Which is what, what we're trying to get to. Yeah. Not that it's not helpful, just not reducing inflammation at the exact site- Level that we- Mm-hmm... 22:37 at, at the level we're talking about. Yeah. That makes sense. 22:39 Um, versus, and the other part is the longer you're holding it under ice, obviously that is very localized and it's not, that's not, that one, uh, isolated site of the injury, that's not the only thing working, right? 22:53 For sure. On, on, uh, s- uh, I, I guess the, the word would or the term would be supplying- Circulation. Yeah. Yeah. Supplying that area with circulation. Yeah. The whole rest of the body is working there. Uh, so, 23:04 uh, I, I think that's a good point. So going back to the shrinkage, uh- [laughs]... uh, comment. Like you're talking about an appendage that, you know, it's- Yeah... it's not your quadricep. No. 23:12 I mean, you might think that it is, but let's be real. This thing wants to stay alive, right? It, and so it does what it does. It's, it's made to procreate. 23:17 But the, the point of that is, is you're, you're talking about much less- Mm-hmm... muscle, right? Much less depth. It doesn't have to get down that far. Yep, very. 23:24 And again, it's being completely, completely covered by the water or the fluid that you're in. Yep. Being the ocean or whatever- Yeah... the, the ice cold lake or the ice bath- Mm... that you're in. 23:34 Um, and so that surface area is being covered as a whole- Yeah... and your body is trying to do what it can to vasoconstrict and, uh, stay warm. Mm-hmm. Right? That's, that's the, that's- To the organs. That's the idea. 23:43 Well, yeah, it's a very surface area. That's why you see such a, a pull and, and such a reaction there. So let's talk about, so let's move to then the, uh, performance piece. 23:52 So, uh, so we talked about the injury p- piece. Sorry. Let's talk about recovery and performance, and what you, what the benefits may be from doing this, this, uh, immersion therapy. 24:03 Jeff, I'm just gonna turn it over to you. So for me, um, if I'm looking at cryo, there's a couple things. Um, there's a lot of performance, um, increases studies from doing cryo prior to lifting... 24:19 now, uh, pulling inflammation out or whatever. I've done this multiple times, and every time I have a phenomenal lift. I lift better, um, my movement's better. It's, uh, it's a very weird feeling. 24:33 It's almost like it pulls all the inflammation out of your body, and then you have a better lift. Um, for me, when I'm thinking about cold immersion therapy, I'm thinking about I'm using... 24:45 And I sometimes use heat, right? But cold is to constrict and pull out all of the bad things, right? 24:52 So we're trying to bring new blood in from heat, and with ice, bring it out, constrict it, and then also that body's gonna send blood flow there, right? So we're kind of getting a double healing system in that area. 25:06 You're talking about pumping, like s- it's almost like a pumping. You go from cold to heat to cold to heat. No, I don't wanna say RICE, you know, all that. But yeah, there's times where I do use heat. 25:15 Like, if I have an injury, I'll use heat. I'll get movement in, and then I will ice to pull all that inflammation out. 25:21 'Cause if you have inflammation, protein cytokines there that are saying, "Hey, I wanna keep blood here," and you put heat on it- Mm... it's gonna send more, more blood there. 25:30 You're gonna have a worse inflammation response, right? So I'm... I do th- Worse, or just more? You're just gonna- More. Yeah, more. 25:36 You, you might- Theoretically, you're getting an increase- You're not gonna increase in pain, but you're gonna have an increase in inflammation, which- Okay... could be good, could be bad. 25:43 But what I like to do is get an increase in blood flow there- Mm-hmm... through heat. I move my joint, whatever it is, through a proper function, and then I ice it after immediately- Okay... 25:54 um, to help pull everything out. And sometimes you can do a, a heat-ice protocol to kinda do that pumping of b- bringing up blood. But if you're using ice, the body's gonna try to send blood there- Mm-hmm... 26:06 regardless, right? 'Cause it thinks the tissue's dying. Yeah, so we're talking about more from a movement perspective. Yeah. I'm thinking, now, so I'm thinking of it from a little bit different level. 26:15 Like, I'm trying to, um, reduce inflammation, again, reduce that soreness, put me in a, a position to get back into the- Mm-hmm... training room, or get... 26:24 Sorry, get back onto the training floor, onto the field, the court, or whatever, and perform at my- For sure... perform at my best. I wanna talk about this vasoconstriction thing and, and, and where the benefits end. 26:34 Are you talking about high-level athletes, regular people just training? Okay. No, I'm talking about any. I'm talking about anybody. I'm talking about anybody because some of, some of us... I'm not a high-level athlete. 26:41 Me either. But, uh, you know, I can still benefit by this stuff. I'm just looking at the, I'm just looking at the, the vasoconstriction piece. And this- Gotcha... is what I found interesting. I read some studies. 26:50 Uh, there was one in particular where I think there was a total of somewhere, uh, between 30, 30 and 40 males that there, there were, that these scientists were studying. I think it was a Dutch study. 27:02 And what they were looking at was, um, they, they did some, some measurements, and they were talking about... I don't wanna get too far down this rabbit hole. But they were talking about the brown fat- Mm. Yeah... 27:12 uh, availability, right? [laughs] Um- To use... to use brown fat. Wow. Yep. So if we, if we looked at this really quickly- Yep, yep... we can talk about white fat- Yep... and brown fat. Yep. Brown fat, think of the... 27:23 Like, even if you looked at, uh, like a steak, for example- Yep... like a, like a, a rib eye-type steak. You're gonna have some fat in there that's just gonna feel very soft and- Yeah... 27:31 very mushy, and then you'll have other fat on there that you'll see it's, like, white marbled, like super, uh, uh- Like, if you were fat-... super dense... and I was to punch you, you'd be, like, super soft. Solid, yeah. 27:42 If you had brown fat and I punched you, it would be like you had a six-pack with something else on the inside pushing back at me. Yeah, so it's... 27:48 So the brown fat's a very easily broken, much more easily broken down- Mm-hmm... fat. It's le- it's less dense. It's packed less dense. The cells are packed less densely. More around the organ. 27:56 And interestingly, when it's exposed to cold- Mm... right, it actually produces a protein that then shuttles, 28:05 uh, branched-chain amino acids, which we haven't really talked a lot about on this show before, but branched-chain aminos being the quote-unquote building blocks of proteins that your body ultimately breaks down protein into to then- Yep... 28:18 rebuild its own protein. So when you eat the chicken- Mm-hmm... right, that was the perfect combination of BCAAs and things. Oh, yeah. And, and, and, uh- Beautiful... 28:25 they folded that protein over specific to work great for the chicken. But now your body has to take it, basically dismantle the chicken- Break this down... 28:32 and turn it into a usable form for you, and part of that is, again, breaking it ultimately down- Yep... into these BCAAs, proteins, and then shuttling them into the system. So back- Same thing with carbohydrates... 28:41 back to cold and brown fat. So what they studied was is there, there, half of these guys had a high availability of brown fat. Half of them didn't. Mm-hmm. All right? 28:49 There's studies they can do in order to work this out. Don't quote me on it. I'm not a scientist. Uh, but what I found was interesting was those that had... Uh, stick with me here. Those that had 29:01 a higher amount of brown fat, right? Mm. Yeah. Again, the fat that- You do know-... 29:05 that, that then produces a protein that then can shuttle these, these branched-chain aminos in, had less branched-chain aminos available to them after cold water, water ther- therapy in the bloodstream. 29:17 So it was inhibiting, then, recovery? Uh, stick with me. That's what I said. So I had to read it, like, three times, uh, this study, like, three times. 29:24 So then I went back and I looked, and then I kept reading, and it said those that had a higher amount of white fat, so less available as brown fat- Yep, yep... had more- More... branched-chain aminos in the bloodstream. 29:36 But here's the thing. Where did it transport to? I don't know. That's exactly the, the right question. 29:42 So what, what they found was those high brown fat people that had that protein that had less branched-chain aminos in the, uh, in, in the bloodstream- Bloodstream... 29:53 what they found is that protein is responsible for shuttling those branched-chain aminos into the cell to then- Mm... feed the mitochondria, which again, if you remember- Let's go with that... that life sciences- Yep... 30:03 as a kid, which is the powerhouse of the cell. Now, you can't measure... They're, they're not measuring that. Yeah. 30:08 So the, the thing about recovery and branched-chains and, and DOMS and all that stuff is, like, while, while we know a lot of shit- Mm... the collective we, we don't know everything there is to know. 30:17 But the, basically, the assumption's being made that that's where that stuff is going. Um, it is going from the bloodstream more effectively... during cold water immersion- Mm-hmm... right? 30:27 Or cold, uh, immersion therapy into the cell versus being stuck- In the bloodstream... in, in the bloodstream. And I think that's a big thing. 30:35 When we first started, when we had Spectrum Cell, right, we were doing intracellular blood testing to see what is going on in your- Yep... in your cells because the blood, it doesn't matter. Mm. Right. 30:46 If it's in your blood and it's not getting into the cells, it does not matter. Well, it, it could. It has implications. 30:50 It could, but we don't- But, but just because it's in your bloodstream doesn't mean it's made it to the cell. It's just being utilized. 30:53 So you do a blood test, right, and you see serum levels, and then you do your intracellular test and you see that you're deficient- Yep... but you have enough in your serum, right? Right. So. There, yeah, so there's... 31:04 Again, it's like, is, is what you're taking or onboarding, we talked about this in our supplements- Absolutely, yeah... uh, conversation or, or podcast a little bit ago, is what you're taking actually being absorbed? 31:13 And then is it getting transported? Yes. Exactly. So there's two things. A, is it even making it into the bloodstream? 31:18 And then once it's in there, is it making it to the places cellularly that it needs to in order to help do the things that you're originally taking it for in the first place? 31:24 And the same thing happens with burning fat, by the way. Yeah. So- So just, just to let everyone know, sometimes you burn fat, you put it in the bloodstream, and it comes right back- Yeah... for storage. 31:34 So, a, a good point. So the whole, the whole thing here with the recovery is is, and the vasoconstriction is, is vasoconstriction a good idea if you need to be shuttling nutrients into the cells? 31:46 Like, okay, it may be reducing, again, that local inflammation at some level, and there are questions about that. Mm-hmm. There are still questions about that. 31:55 But at the same time, like, okay, but what about that post-workout recovery BCAA protein carbohydrate concoction- Yep... 32:04 that I spend so much time figuring out to be the right formula for me- 30 minutes after a workout... then I'm putting, a, putting it in my, my anabolic window- [laughs]... and all that stuff. 32:12 And then I go get in the cold bath- Yep... while that stuff is now entering my bloodstream, but it can't get to where it needs to go because I've constricted the blood vessels. Yeah. Something to think about. Mm-hmm. 32:22 And, uh, these are questions that are out there that we don't have answers to, but something to think about. But just something to think about. Yes. You know? Like- For sure. Absolutely. 32:29 So we have this, this recovery piece, and w- here's what we know, like, w- what the, what the objective data or subjective data is, is telling us. 32:39 People report when they g- in almost every case, after doing a strenuous workout, right, they, uh- Feel better... they feel better. Mm-hmm. They have less DOMS. For sure. Right? 32:52 And they are ready to go, uh, for the longer term. Mm-hmm. Right? Here's an interesting point, though. Going back to the protein synthesis piece. Mm. 33:00 Uh, there have been studies done where effectively they'll put, again, a, a... This is almost always, like, college-aged males, right? Yep. 'Cause it's some university- Mm-hmm... that's getting charged to do this study. 33:10 Uh, they've gone through s- like a heavy, I believe it was a cycling workout, heavy, heavy cycling workout, and they only cold treated one limb. [laughs] Right? They only cold treated- Love it... one, one limb. 33:24 And what they found was there was better protein synthesis in the untreated limb than in the- Cold treated... cold treated limb. No way. Yeah. 33:33 So from a performance perspective, they also measured this, which is really hard. Yeah. Like, I, I'm not sure I'm really bought into this. Like, how do you, like, measure performance? For sure. 33:41 But, but the- Especially individually... but, but the, but the, the... And there's a lot of factors that go into this, but again, going with the protein synthesis, the only way to tell that is through a muscle biopsy. 33:50 Mm-hmm. Which means they actually have to go in- Oh, Ben Greenfield. T- Call him in. He loves that. 33:55 [laughs] Take a piece of your tissue out, deep, deep tissue out of, say, your quads, if that's where they're pulling it from. They literally have you on a bike- Mm-hmm... pushing, and then they stab you. Yep. Mm-hmm. 34:05 Pull that muscle fiber out- Yep... look at it, have you keep going. Yep. You are still going. It's a core sample. They do 340... Yeah, it's- It's a core sample of your, of your muscles. It's very... Yeah. 34:12 But what they found was the untreated legs were get- or had better protein synthesis, which could go back to what we were talking about with regard to the BCAA transportation through brown fat metabolism- Mm... 34:23 and those kind of things. So I, I found that to be extraordinarily fascinating. Uh, fascinating. Yeah. And, um, but always, going back to what I was saying before, people report, "Oh, man, I just feel so much better. 34:35 I'm ready to go. Um, I have delayed onset, uh, my, my DOMS, my delayed onset muscle soreness is reduced." Yeah. "And I just feel better." Uh, okay. 34:46 So- Now that, now they're reporting, because alongside of that, they're reporting, "Well, I'm sleeping better." Mm-hmm. "I have better energy through the day." Mm-hmm. "I have a better attitude mentally and physically." 34:56 I think we need to spend some time- For sure... talking about that and where that's coming from with regard to the benefits of cold therapy, because not everybody's doing cold immersion therapy because- True... 35:06 they're trying to ha- be less sore from their workouts. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. I, I, I did see, um, some research talking about how it's really helped individuals with depression. Yep. 35:15 Yeah, talk about that. Uh, just [laughs]... Yeah... I mean, as far as, you know, dealing with the, um, the nervous system. So we have our central nervous system, and then we have our autonomic nervous system. 35:26 And to, to make a little bit of a, a physiology discussion here, so our central nervous system is comprised of our brain and our spinal cord, and then our autonomic nervous system is comprised of our somatic nervous system, and then our, our... 35:39 Sorry, sorry, our peripheral nervous system. Central nervous system, peripheral nervous system, and within the peripheral nervous system is our somatic- Yep... 35:46 um, nervous system, and then our autonomic n- uh, nervous system. And so what's the autonomic- Within our autonomic nervous system, that's where we have our parasympathetic and our sympathetic nervous system. 35:56 So our sympathetic nervous system is our fight or flight. Yep. Where our parasympathetic nervous system is our rest and digest. That's where, um- Makes our heart beat... you know, e- Our lungs work... exactly. Right. 36:07 It's invol- it's, um- You cannot change it... involuntary. Right. You have no use for- Unless with your Wim Hof. Yeah. Right. You, you have no, um, control over it. Yeah. It's just, it's just automatic. 36:16 And so, um, where was I going with this? So- Parasympathetic, I think... um, parasympathetic, and so downregulating the sys- the n- the nervous system. 36:25 And, um, you know, it was kind of fun 'cause I was refreshing myself on some of the physiology, and it was talking about how- 36:32 Um, with the downregulation, it's also stimulating the vagus nerve, and the vagus nerve is one of 12 cranial nerves. Mm. And, um, the, the vagus nerve is cranial nerve number 10, and- [laughs]... 36:47 um, it's the nerve that, um, w- at least in athletic training when you go through a head, um, and neck assessment- Yep... one of the things that you have somebody do is can they swallow? 36:58 And so it's the nerve that innervates the throat for swallowing, but then it also connects, um, the brain to the heart and the lungs- Diaphragm... and then to the thorax- Mm... 37:09 right, and to, so to your- The breathing muscles... abdominal organs. Ah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, the muscles and organs. So down reg- so in short, down-regulating. 37:17 So working on stimulating, um, the, the vagus nerve and then, um, down-regulating the body. Yeah. 37:26 And so going back, anybody that's ever jumped into an ice cold pool, ocean, lake or whatever, they know the moment you jump in, your heart rate changes- Mm-hmm... and your respiratory rate changes. Mm-hmm. 37:36 There is a shock to the body, right? Yep. So for people that do this stuff on a regular basis, like, yeah, no shit, tell me something I didn't already know, right? But- Also, the hormones that are released as well... 37:46 yes, fight or flight. Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. Their fight or flight system is immediately switched on, right? Mm. Again, the parasympathetic is being impacted. But you're telling it to shut up. 37:55 And you're, so you have to- That's the whole idea. Working. Yep. You're having to work, um, on having to control that reaction. And how do you do that? Through breathing. 38:05 Through, through breathwork and- An activation of the-... mindset... mindset... vagus nerve. Yeah. Yeah, mindset and breathwork is a great way to help down-regulate your system. 38:14 And anybody that does and has practiced meditation, I'm terrible at it, and, and it, it's been very few times in my life where I've been able to get to a state where I really felt benefit from meditation because it's just very hard for me to do. 38:26 Yep. I've shared that before. But anybody that spends time doing that or has spent time doing that, particularly like in a yoga practice, um, as, as one or in some type of religious practice for that matter- Sure... 38:37 um, or spiritual. Whatever. We'll put it that way. I don't want to say religious, but spiritual practice. They've e- they can, they've, they can experience this huge down-regulation and sense of calm and peace, right? 38:48 Um- They can almost do it on a whim. The guys that really, that really can do it, two or three breaths. But it can take practice. Oh. So I was just listening to this guy- Yeah... 38:54 on this podcast, an ex Green Beret, and he was talking about how, um, he, he wanted to be, I think, very aggressive and, um, tried to meditate and work on his breathing for, like, 30 minutes. 39:05 And so he went out and did it 30 minutes, and then he's like he had to cut it back down to, like, two minutes. Five, 10. Yeah, no. And then work his way up. Yeah. Try it up. Because... 39:12 And it took him, like, three years to be able to do that. Yeah, you're talking about- Yeah. No, I, I think that's- I think you're talking about Tulam. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, from Ronin Tactics- But no, that's-... 39:19 Call of Duty and all that stuff... like, seriously, that's great. Like, you start with five minutes and just trying to be like any thought that comes in, boom, is out the door. I'm back to... 39:26 So this is, this is the, this is as much about performance, right? Yeah. And, and anesthetic training- For sure... right? And health and longevity- And pushing yourself as well... as anything. 39:35 So let's get, let's continue down this path then. So you, once you jump in, you're immediately, you're immediately, your mind goes nuts. Like, the first thing it says- I need to get out... 39:43 "I gotta get the fuck out of here," right? Yeah, true. [laughs] We gotta go. Total panic. Yeah. Because it's- Bra- you stop breathing. I mean, just, yeah... it's danger, right? Mm-hmm. It's danger zone. Mm. 39:50 I will, uh, it's a danger zone. Like, if I stand here too long, the body knows I'm gonna die. Yeah. Right? Like, so the, the first response is, uh, elevate heart rate. Yep. Elevate respiratory rate. Go, go. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 39:59 Increase circulation, get blood going. Yep. Keep the body warm, right? Meanwhile, in your head, you have to fight this mentally, and then physiologically, you also have to fight this and go, "No, I need to relax. 40:10 I need to calm down. I, I need to just continue to breathe." And you literally have to block out everything else that's out there in order to get into the state, and that goes back to the two minutes versus 30 minutes. 40:20 You're not gonna- Mm. You can't make yourself meditate. It's like practicing for life. Right. Exactly. Right? So I think this is a, this is where I'm going with this and, uh, 40:31 I guess in just in a second, but you jump in that water, things go crazy. Here's a n- here's a personal story. I, I, I was doing the, uh, the Nissan Xterra, uh, Western Regional, uh, Triathlon Championship. 40:44 It was up in Lake Tahoe. It used to be held there every September. I don't even know if it is anymore. It was, like, the end of, it was, like, the last weekend of September going into October. 40:52 So in Tahoe, that's, that's kind of a transitional time- Yep... in terms of the weather. It's a local time. Yeah, it's so, in the- Yeah... in the weather. It can be, it can be 80 degrees, 85 degrees one day. 41:01 It's local season, though. It could be 40 the next day. Yep. Uh, we'd gone out there to the day before. We always went up there a couple days before to try to acclimate, right? Because you got your, your elevation. 41:10 You're a little over 5,000 feet. We were coming from sea level, so that's a thing. What we know now is it takes about a week to really acclimate to that. For sure. 41:18 But I used, I d- I didn't, my, more my thing was I never sleep the first two nights I'm up at elevation. Like, I have very, very broken sleep. Ah. My respiratory rate is off, and I don't sleep well. 41:29 So I wanted to make sure I was up there a couple of days early, uh, every time when, when we, when we went to do this race- Get acclimated... so that I could acclimate there from a sleep perspective- Yeah, for sure... 41:38 and try and, try and get- Sleep and oxygen... tr- Smart... try and get, yeah, try and get my, you know, my shit together, right? But also what we do is we go out, we pre-ride the trail, pre-run, you know. 41:47 Opposite of David Goggins with the Myoplex- [laughs]... and the, uh, just taping of the feet. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, I didn't, never just showed up. Yeah, dude, you- Not to this one. This race was-... savage... 41:55 this race was big. So then we'd also go down, and we'd go and get in the water. Mm. And so, uh, we'd always pull on the wetsuits to, to swim. 'Cause where, I was living in Southern California most of this time. 42:06 We didn't need to swim in wetsuits most of the time. Yeah. It was for more of a comfort and a flotation thing. Lake Tahoe, you need a 3/4, right? [laughs] Yeah, it's a different deal. 42:12 But we'd get in, like, on the first day, no swimsuits, or, uh, no, uh- [laughs] No swimsuits, huh? Sorry, go back to swim trunks. No swim- No wetsuits. Banquets. [laughs] Sorry. 42:20 So we'd just get in our swim trunks or whatever, and we, we'd swim a little bit. Dude, you'd get in that water, and you'd just be like- Yeah... "What the fuck?" [laughs] What am I doing? So, you know what I mean? 42:27 We were practicing, we were swimming miles. Yeah. You know, miles and miles and miles every week. In these, in this particular, uh, event, it was only a half-mile to one-mile swim. Yeah. 42:35 This was a, uh, it's a modified event. Triathlon swim. Yeah. So it's more of a sprint, right? I think this, this particular one was a mile, but we'd go out and you'd swim. 42:44 You'd get 50 meters out and, you know, you'd just be trying to maintain, and you'd have to come up head full out, fully out of water 'cause your body's just freaking out. Mm-hmm. 42:53 Um, the point of that is, is then, then the next day we'd put the wetsuits on, get a feel for that. 42:57 Um, the first couple of days, the last event that I, I went up there, those two days before the event it was, like, beautiful days. 43:03 It was like 75 degrees on the high side, um, during the afternoon, and that's when we were practicing. But we showed up the next day, the race started at 8:00. You get to the race at about 6:00, 6:30. 50. 43:12 Getting all your shit out there. Oh, it was worse. [laughs] The outside air temperature was, like, 42 degrees. Damn. That's cold. Yeah. Right? When you come from 75. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. There were swells on the... 43:23 This is a whole other thing, but the swells on the lake were over six feet high. Dude, if you ever saw that. [laughs] I've never seen anything. If you don't stop it, like... [laughs] Waves were crashing on Tahoe. 43:30 But here's the thing. So our preparation had helped us to a certain extent. For sure. Like, from the cold perspective. But a lot of people didn't expect how h- how cold it was gonna be outside. 43:40 The air temperature was c- colder than the water temperature. Yeah. The water temperature was in the 50s. You wanna stay in that water. It was like 54. 43:46 So first thing you gotta do, you gotta get in there early AM and kind of try and acclimate. Like, get your wetsuit wet, whatever. Oh, wow. 43:51 Other people are standing on the shore freezing their asses off, you know, huddled together, uh, waiting till the last minute before- That's the worst... they have to get in the water. 43:58 The, only a third of the field finished the swim on that day. And they did great. Only a third of, uh, uh... Well, that's a whole other thing. So pe- so pe- But it, they freaked the fuck out going into that water. 44:08 So the people that finished, were they the ones that were waiting, um, outside of the water to start, or were they the ones in the water? No, the- Because I have a similar story. Yeah, no. And so I'm very curious. 44:18 No, the people that were in the water... Like, and again, you ha- you could only be in the water so long 'cause they stage these things, right? For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They have a huge field, right? 44:25 So they have to, you go in age groups or, or whatever. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. And, uh, th- no, I mean, a lot of them, this was a pro race. 44:32 I mean, th- this is the Western regional championships before you went to Ha- uh, to Hawaii on the Big Island to, to, to race ultimately if you, if you qualified at this race. 44:42 Um, so people that finished- So both groups... a large amount of people that finished were, like, the pro, sponsored- Hmm... you know, athletes that finished. Were they in the water prior? They, they... 44:51 Yeah, they were definitely in the water- Gotcha, gotcha... warming up prior. Or at least the ones that I know podiumed- Gotcha. Yeah, yeah... and, and that were usually winning were. 44:58 Uh, for the rest of us, like, there were some of us that were and weren't. 45:00 But I can't honestly answer that question because all I know, this is what, back to your, what you were kind of making a statement there ab- before, how they did. This is what pissed me the fuck off. 45:11 So I finished that swim, right? And I knew I would. As miserable, it was, people were getting seasick out there. They were throwing up on themselves. 45:18 [laughs] And there were having to be- I can't even imagine the Lake Tahoe looking like that... they were literally being pulled, they were being pulled out of the water by the Coast Guard and- [laughs]... 45:23 the sheriff's office boats and the lifeguards that were there- Mm-hmm... on the thing. They let those- Is Lake Tahoe- They let those fucking people start the bike ride before all of the sw- No... 45:33 the w- the swimmers that were finishing- If you get pulled out, you're done... finished their run. You're done. You're done. You're done. Yeah, I'll p- you have no idea- You could call it. You're done... 45:39 how pissed I was. I was- I would've been pissed too... so I don't know. I don't actually know the answer to your question, Cece. Gotcha. Yeah. But anyway, going back to your, your, your, uh, your story. 45:47 Oh, well, you know, I, just from personal experience, like you, um, when I did the St. George Ironman, it was the inaugural Ironman there, and the water was below 60 degrees. 45:58 And at that time, I was, like, maybe 108, 110 pounds, and definitely under 10% body fat. And I remember standing on the shore thinking, "Okay, do I get in or do I not get in?" 46:10 And, um, I ended up getting in so I could acclimate. So because I know in cold water in the past, 'cause, uh, swims up at Aquatic Park, I would get in and I'd start freaking out, and my heart rate would go up. 46:22 I'd have a really hard time breathing. I wouldn't be able to get my face in. So I was like, "Okay, I need to, I need to get in the water and get acclimated," and c- I was so hypothermic. Mm-hmm. 46:30 Like, uh, it was a 2.4 mile swim, and when I got out- So it's-... I couldn't even take off my clothes. That's, that's- That's a 40-minute swim. Yeah. I think I did it in, like, 60, or not 60, 50 some minutes. Mm-hmm. 46:41 A 2.4-mile swim. And I couldn't even change my clothes. The people in the, the, um, tent had to strip my wetsuit off and put my clothes on. Right. And I remember everything was blurry, and I got on my fucking bike. 46:53 Right. And I was having such gastrointestinal problems that day. I mean, it... 46:58 And then it was, like, however many hundred and so many miles of, of riding, and I was having a hard time getting my nu- my nutrients in and stuff like that. It was fucking miserable. 47:05 So I kind of wonder if I had stayed on shore, if I wouldn't have been as hypothermic. Interesting. That's cold. Yeah. Pro- pro- probably- I don't know... probably not. 47:13 It's probably more of what we were going to with that, which is training your body and mind- To be in that area. Yeah... to relax and deal with the parasympathetic in the way it needs to deal with it. 47:23 I actually got, in another race, in an adventure race, got turned over in a kayak out, actually, uh, was down in Malibu, the Malibu area. Mm. Not even that cold. Yeah. But cold enough. Yeah, yeah. I was low body fat. 47:35 It was a, it was a fall day or whatever. The wind was blowing. I passed out in the water from hypothermia. Oh, damn. I had to be pulled out by the Coast Guard. Holy shit. They took me to the shore. 47:42 Like, it was, I woke up- You were-... on the shore. Wow. Like, I, I- Do you ever tell your mom and dad that story? [laughs] I, I don't remember. 47:48 [laughs] But, but, but the point of it is, is your body is going to react whether you like it or not. Yep. Right? Yeah. So going back to the breathing, the parasympathetic piece, and the dealing with the discomfort. 47:59 So this is where I wanna get into, like, the, uh, the resilience piece. Mm. 48:04 And, and what cold water training can do for you in terms of helping you through, you mentioned the studies that are being done with people that have maybe PTS, uh- Mm-hmm... 48:11 depression, and dealing with uncomfortable situations. Just being a bitch- Well-... to be honest with you... well, I mean, let's be, but let's be, let's be fair about this. 48:20 Like, once that anxiety gets to a certain level or that, the, that depression gets to a certain level, you may feel completely out of control- Mm-hmm... because you don't know how to control it. Mm. Right? 48:32 And so this cold water immersion is a great way to get inside or get outside- Yeah... however you wanna look at it, your own head- For sure... 48:40 and work through these breathing techniques and these meditation, active meditation techniques. To sit there and be able to deal with the discomfort. Um- That's what I use it for. E- Let's be real... 48:52 and that- that's where I was going with this. Yeah. So it doesn't have to be about athletic performance and recovery. It can be as much about performance in life- Mm-hmm... and being resilient to tough things- Yeah... 49:02 and things that happen to you as anything else. And if you're that sore, you need to look at your nutrition. Yeah, maybe. I mean, like- Yeah... let's be real. Yeah. 49:07 But, you know, one of the, the studies that, or a couple of the studies that I was reading about with the cold water immersion therapy and, um, physiologically the release of, um, dopamine and norepinephrine- Mm-hmm... 49:19 as far as having more energy and- Okay... um, having a calming effect and how, um, that, you know, this stimulates the, the nervous system to, to also then, um, help regulate the cortisol release- Right... as well. Yeah. 49:37 So having your fight or flight system being- So-... be, uh, stimulated in this way- Yeah... can be extraordinarily helpful. So what you just said- Right? Because if-... like, w- if you did a pre-workout, right? 49:47 Like we were talking about, like all these studies pre-workout, right? You're releasing dopamine, cortisol. What do we wanna do when we're working out? Well, workout, you're going to release cortisol. Right? Right? 49:56 That's the, that's the- And so having- By the way, that's the hormone we're all chasing during the workout. Yeah. That's what, that's what we're feeling at the end of the workout. Yeah. It makes us feel fucking great. 50:04 Yeah. Right? And it's- It's just overstimulating that t- for too long- Mm-hmm. Yeah... without allowing the proper recovery- For sure... 50:10 um, which be- which becomes a problem when- And if you're type A, you're coffee all the time, you're working out- And work-... you're stressed, right? We're chronically overstimulating and pushing that button. 50:19 Uh, but y- that's, again, goes back to your point. 50:21 I'm glad you circled back to that, Jeff, in that having, doing this cold water immersion therapy prior to workout could improve your performance, increase your performance, your sense of wellbeing, your- It has mine... 50:31 your alertness. And that's what a lot of people are, again, are reporting subjectively. Um, I can attest to that. 50:38 Uh, getting into or out of, whether it's helping my inflammation or not, if I feel better, I'm going to perform better. Mm-hmm. I'm going to sleep better. Mm-hmm. I'm going to handle my day better. Yep. Yep. 50:48 And more importantly, and this is... I'm gonna go back to the resilience piece, 'cause it's such a big thing for me that I'm so passionate about, is we need more resilient people on our planet, right? 50:58 We need more resilient people, uh, in our communities, in our, in our nation. We need our kids to be more resilient. Yep. And they are not resilient because they are not having to be faced with these hard things. Yeah. 51:13 They're not as resilient as maybe they w- we were. We've posted some stuff lately on our... [laughs] And getting some- I mean, it's just-... 51:18 getting some interesting feedback about, like, "Hey, you know, we used to have to run till we threw up," you know, at practice. Yeah. Or- In liners. Yeah. 51:24 J- dude, like- There was, there was having to endure really hard things. Mm-hmm. 'Cause at least there you have a, you have a comparison. I'm not saying it's for everybody. 51:30 When we lost hockey games, dude, we skated until somebody threw up. Right. And when that person threw up, it was at least until two or three more threw up. Yeah. And then that's when you called it. 51:41 So, so I, I guess my point of this is, is, is like building that resiliency and being able to deal with the difficult situations. Resiliency by definition would be your ability to bounce back from something hard. Yep. 51:52 Exactly. Yep. Quick. Right? So whether it's the workout itself, right? 51:55 When we talked about vasoconstriction, BCAAs, mitochondria, there's a lot of stuff there, eh, you know, reducing inflammation, or whether you're, you're, you're, you're increasing your re- your ability to recover through proper mindset, through downregulation of the parasympa- parasympathetic system in order to feel better, rest better, digest better- Mm. 52:17 Mm-hmm... utilize all the- Yeah. There it is. Nutrients that are going through your intestines. There it is. There it is. U- utilize that, that concoction- Yep... that you built- Yep... 52:22 you know, in a shaker after your, after- Yeah... your, uh, your workout or whatever. Those are the things that I'm talking about. And, and, and I think more people could benefit, whether you work out or not. 52:31 Like, do I want you to work out? 'Cause it's hard to quantify that, right? Do I want you to work out? Absolutely, I want you to work out. I want you to exercise. I want you to do hard things. I want you to suffer. Yes. 52:40 I don't want you to hurt- Yes... but I want you to suffer mentally. Yep. I want you to suffer physically so that you r- you respect and understand what it's like to get to the other side- Mm... 52:49 and what, what your level or what the true meaning of what that level of hard is for you. And so in building resiliency in, in people and having to deal with these things, but also prepping them- Yeah... 53:03 to not be as impacted by the hard thing when it comes. Like- It's like a client when you increase their weight and they're like, "I can't do this." Yeah, you can. 53:10 They pulled it off the floor as many times as they did the weight before, and you're like, "Look at that." Right. So you're, you're, you're prepping your mindset. Mm-hmm. 53:17 You're prepping your parasympathetic to handle the, the challenge. Yeah. I'm not even gonna say struggle. Yeah. I'm gonna say challenge in a completely different kind of way. Yep. 53:26 And I don't think that we can emphasize that enough when it comes to this practice of cold immersion therapy. Um, and I think that a lot... And therapy c- is a broad term there- Yes... 53:36 'cause it, it handles the physiological- Yeah... you know, the psychological, the emotional. We've really touched on all of those things today. But I think more people could, could benefit by that. 53:46 And, and again, whether that's just getting in and turning on your, your cold shower in the morning. Yep. It doesn't have to be 40 to 50 or, again, 41 to 50 degrees. As long as it's uncomfortable- Yep... 53:57 and it, and it creates that increased respiratory rate. And there's s- Right? Increased heart rate... and you stay in there until you can breathe and relax. Right. Once you hit that moment, turn it off. 54:05 It could be 10 seconds, 15 seconds, but breathe. Yeah. Don't get out of it when you're... Right. Right? Breathe. Get to that, like, "I feel relaxed. This is okay." I turn the water off and I leave. 54:16 And I would, I would challenge people to think about that being the real reason you're doing it to start- Yes... rather than- The inflammation... again, the BCAAs and the brown fat- And the inflammation, right? Like-... 54:25 and the mitochondria and, and all that stuff, because we're gonna be splitting hairs there. Yeah. 54:30 In the end, I think, again, we, we go back to our E² + E, that stress and sleep management piece, uh, in terms of how we're taking care of our bodies and our parasympa- parasympathetic systems. Yeah. 54:40 What we're doing to down regulate. Uh, those are, that, those are often the, that's often the biggest missing piece. For sure. 54:47 Or those two things are the, often the biggest missing piece between s- what's standing in the way of somebody performing well or just performing. Mm-hmm. Um, and that just performing is on a fine line of- 54:58 Uh, starting to move backwards, right? Yeah. And, and, and not being resilient, uh, so- 'Cause I know you guys seen a lot of, like, these guys going straight from sauna to the cold plunge, right? Sure, yeah. Mm-hmm. 55:09 And doing, and doing cycles back. I've done it. That- Uh, so it's, I mean- This has been an age old. Yeah. This goes back- This is Nordic. This is dipping pools... this is prehistoric shit. Exactly. Yeah. 55:15 [laughs] This is Nordic dipping pools, dude. Yeah. They've been doing this for years. Um- Some Viking shit. Exactly. Yeah. 55:21 But just doing that in a sense of like, yeah, like you're talking about, yes, it helps recover and do all of these things, but, like, if I can get my mindset stronger and I can push myself stronger and I can get through the day and I can be more resilient in, like, daily conversations in my workouts and everything, I'm going to have a higher affinity to get through my workout, have a better workout than just like, "Oh, I re- I reduced my inflammation." 55:43 You're gonna have a lot higher affinity just to get through life. [laughs] Yeah, in, in general. We wanna be... Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, and those, those, those benefits are literally immeasurable. 55:54 So stop trying to- Yep... find a metric for it, uh, because you're not gonna find one. No. You can look at your Whoop. Yeah, it's- You can look at your Apple Watch. You can look at your Fitbit. 56:02 You can do all those things. All that type of shit. But at the end of the day, it is gonna be qualitative. Yep. And those are things you have to be self-aware of, and that self-awareness is gonna come from 56:12 getting past the distraction, getting into the uncomfortable so that- Mm-hmm... you can come out and find your comfort level again in order to go back and, and reflect. 56:20 And, and so, you know, a- again, lots of benefit from performance enhancement that, that could be- For sure... extracted from cold immersion therapy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, tons. 56:29 I think there's a lot from a, uh, from a injury recovery piece. Mm-hmm. Like, we know there are benefits. Yep. 56:35 Uh, de- and, but it depends on who you are, what your injury is, um, and- Are you then coming back and training properly afterwards, right? Yeah... all, so many things that go into that. Yep. 56:44 But I, I, I honestly, for me, d- uh, in stepping away from, from this conversation would be, I think the biggest thing comes in the, the emotional, psychological, and resiliency pieces, uh, that help, that can, that can help people or benefit. 56:57 I'm gonna agree. 'Cause I don't care how tough you are. Yeah. I don't care, um, you know, how many things you've been through, and I also don't care how many things that you haven't been through or how depressed you are. 57:06 Exactly. Or whatever your PTS is. Doesn't matter. I mean, unless you've been... You know, unless drowning is a thing for you in ice cold water. Obviously, that could be- [laughs]... that could be problematic here. 57:15 But my point is, is like, even the, the, to your point, the, the toughest guys in the, in, in the world, you know, measurably the, some of the toughest guys in the world- Yeah... 57:23 from a physical perspective and a mental, uh, like, resiliency perspective are challenged by this. And they'll have a physiological breakdown. 'Cause your body is going to react. Yeah. Doesn't matter. 57:31 Your body's gonna react. Yeah. So I think anybody can benefit from it. I, I don't know. I, I can't really think of anybody that, that may not benefit, unless... What would be the- There's a contraindication. 57:40 There, there's a con- Yeah. There's a couple contraindications. Mm-hmm. And I, uh, we missed those at the beginning, but maybe- Mm... we, maybe we just touch on those real quick. 57:46 Like- I think if, if, um, you're ch- challenged cardiovascularly, if you have a, a, a- Heart condition... arrhythmia or something like that, yes, then you would want to- Shocking the system, probably not a good- Mm-hmm. 57:54 Vessel constriction, probably not a good idea. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. From, from a Western standpoint, I mean- If you have a circulatory con- condition- Mm-hmm... like if you have diabetes- Yeah... 58:02 and you're about to lose your leg- Yeah... getting in and reducing circulation to that area may not be a good idea. 58:07 I mean, dude, and I could also b- play devil's advocate because we know blood's gonna come back there even stronger, right? Because it thinks it's dying and it already has less blood flow. I think it depends. 58:14 I mean, like, you know me. Like, exactly. That's the disclaimer. We, we- Depends. It's, dude, it's hard to tell, right? Like- But most people, most of healthy individuals- Healthy... 58:21 most generally healthy, and again, that's a broad s- Yes... that's a really broad statement in today's- Mm-hmm... day and age. We just have a really sick and fat nation- Yep... that we're dealing with right now. 58:30 But I think most generally healthy people could really benefit- I totally agree. Yep... through cold immersion therapy in one way or another. [rock music] Thank you for tuning into this episode of Iron Sights. 58:39 If you enjoyed our conversation, you can support our mission by hitting the subscribe button, leaving a review, and sharing the podcast with a friend. I'll see you on the next episode.
